Andreas

John, I am curious about the quote you provide saying that SG had only 17 tanks. That is contradictory to Peter Beale's 'Tank Tracks', which gives 5 troops of three. That is a book I think is a very good source, seeing that Beale was a Squadron OC or troop commander(can't remember which) in 9th RTR. He also gives the names for most of the tanks. BTW - he also authored the British version of 'Death Traps' - 'Death by design'. Anyone read it? Would be interested in whether it is any good.

Kingfish, you've lost me now. It is a great site, but how is that going to help him the types of Churchills used by the Scots Guards in WW2? I can not find it there.

Some further info - CS tanks were only two to a squadron of 19 tanks (including the ARV). Troops in 9th RTR (Churchills) were organised three tanks to a troop, five troops to a squadron. IIRC in 9th RTR the ordinary Churchills were a mix of variants, but were probably all 75mm equipped - at least there is a short reference to a fitter replacing the 6pdr with a 75mm before embarkation. For the Mk variety - I guess unless you had it shot from under you, they would not give you a new one anyway. Weren't a lot of the Mk Is converted to AVsRE John?

14.18kg

L4Pilot, thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

You can start the technicalities by having a look at the 'beobachtungsabteilung' link in my sig. Also, if you go there go to the links page, and choose the first one 'sounds like the enemy'. some more info. Piper cubs are no good to spot for counter-battery, for reasons that will become apparent when you read the site.

I agree it is fascinating, so once I have CMBB in my grubby paws I may give designing that a go. Do you know if material such as the report you translated is easily available in English or German somewhere?

The Game™ was published as a retail boxed version in the UK with a bonus CD containing publicly available mods and scenarios (very good ones, and also some of mine...). Nothing on it that you can not DL elsewhere.

Sinking of the SS Leopoldsville

Flamingknives, the 3" mortar is better than its 81mm pals because it packs a much hgiher HE load. If you do a search in the archives with my member number and '3" mortar HE load' you may find a thread containing a link to a site with all the data you need.

Simon, I have looked at the what looks like he online version of the 1945 History of the 4th Armoured Brigade and it does not say anything about heavy engagements prior to Epsom. 3 CLY's war diary (transcribed here) also does not mention any major engagements or any tank losses prior to Epsom. 8th Armoured Brigade's history is here, and it looks to me as if they may have had the higher losses. BTW - have you seen that Tank Museum has reprinted the 1945 history of the 7th Armoured? [ March 29, 2002, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

Okay, you've convinced me now. I obviously need to do more reading.

If you count all the infantry involved on the British side you get: 11th Armoured - 4 Battalions 15th Scottish - 9 Battalions 49th West Riding - 9 Battalions 4th & 8th Armoured - 2 Battalions 24 involved in the first line 43rd Wessex (guarding the corridor) - 9 Battalions 33 battalions total 15 armoured battalions is certainly wrong. At most you get 12 I think. So I wonder how these other figures were arrived at.

Jason, 11th Armoured attacked with 4th Armoured Brigade under command, which maybe the reason why you don't see them mentioned that often. That makes a frontline strength (using John's method of calculation here) for the division of 7x3x18 (378 full, say 330 actual at ~90%) mediums alone. Supported by four battalions of infantry. 15th Scottish attacked with its nine battalions of infantry supported by 2x3x18 (108 full, say 95 actual) tanks. 49th attacked in Martlet with 8th Armoured Brigade under command with 3x3x18 Shermans. They had incurred previous losses, so say they were at 60%, which would give them ~100 Shermans. Reynolds sees Martlet as an integral part of Epsom and treats it as such in his narrative. Why 11th Armoured needed more tanks than it had organically is beyond me. GOC 11th Armoured, MG 'Pip' Roberts commented on the lack of co-operation that he got from 15th Scottish after the battle, which maybe one reason why things did not go as well as planned. I don't now who here suggested it was a ringing success. I don't think it was. I agree that there is a bigger picture. Fact is anyway, 12th SS was hit by two different operations on the same day. Realistically one should count in the elements of Panzerlehr involved if they fought in the battle - I don't know if they did. Reynolds does not mention them, but he maybe too hung up about 1st SS Panzerkorps. Then again, he mentions the failed attack by 2. PD later. Martlet was a success, but hardly a ringing one - losses were high both in 49th West Riding and 8th Armoured Brigade. It was an essential part of Epsom's flank protection though as I understand, since it secured a commanding feature NW of Rauray. What it did according to Reynolds was split 12th SS and Panzerlehr, and it presented 12th SS with two strong thrusts at its line. It also necessitated shifting armour over to meet 49th thrust. Reynolds gives the 12th SS 102 tanks (44 Panthers). About half of these were used to meet 49th at some time. So I think it would be right to say that even when 11th Armoured and 4th Armoured Brigade were not committed, British armour superiority in the sector was about 2:1 (assuming all German tanks were in the line) if not better. I don't know how many tanks II SS Panzerkorps brought to the party, but unless it was ~160 frontline runners it would not even begin to even out the score somewhat. According to Reynolds they were not committed before the 28th anyway, so for some time 12th SS had to fend off the whole of VIII Corps with limited support from 2. Panzerdivision and some Tigers. Whether Epsom was a success - it did not achieve what it set out to do, but it got the British across the Odon. At high losses. I hope this is interesting Croda: Peter Beale: 'Tank Tracks - 9 RTR at war' Delaforce: 'The Polar Bears', 'Monty's Marauders', 'The Black Bull', 'The Fighting Wessex Wyvern' Reynolds 'Steel Inferno' Carver 'The British Army in the 20th Century' Anonymous 'History of the 79th Armoured Division' (1945) Godfrey 'The Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 1939-1945' Err, that's it. [ March 27, 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

The study on 'The effect of climate on combat in Russia', done by a German officer for the US Army after the war mentions that mortars were useless in deep snow, but does not mention a calibre beyond which this did not apply. I woul assume that this holds definitely true for the 81mm and below, and maybe even for the 120mm? No idea if this will be modeled.

PLAGIATOR!!! I WAS THE FIRST ONE </font>

Isn't this off topic and should be in the general forum? :confused: Moderators, fix or somefink

Simon, far from it. I am just a bit at a loss as to why anyone would think that the British used bayonet charges as SOP when they were pinned and that this should be modeled. Your examples include two charges, as far as I can see. One seems to have been in a different context (Naples), dispersing a disorganised attacker. The US citation I knew - I have also seen that described as the only bayonet charge a US unit did in the MWE theater. So this regular event (three times in four years of war so far) needs to be modelled why?

All of these British units were fresh, and had not been engaged before. I have histories of all of them, and none does indicate combat and/or losses prior to being engaged in Epsom. I know that tank crews were LOB, but I doubt tanks were, so my calculation for total, and John's for actual frontline strength would be roughly correct. Add to that Operation Martlet, and you are looking at about 680 (frontline) or 730 (total) mediums hitting 12th SS and elms of Panzerlehr on the 25th and 26th June.

Okay, Warphead is the winner, no appeals allowed. Looking up the shop is impressive. The Oderbergerstr. is running parallel to the Schoenhauser Allee, a major road leading out of Berlin to the north. There Waffen-SS fought to the last man, holing themselves into cellars, or sniping at advancing Soviet troops from 1st Floor windows, as you can see in the photo. Around the corner is an old water tower, which was used as a Gestapo torture centre I have been told. The street is quite special because it ended at the Wall, so you were only allowed to enter it if you had a special pass. The quarter is called Prenzlauer Berg. There are today very few houses with this amount of damage left. Three years ago, when I first went, there were a lot more. The pockmarks of history are vanishing fast in Berlin. Yes, expect the odd scenario or two in the area. I regularly visit it.

You get an extra price for that Hiram. Not bad Warpy, two out of three. Rommel - the large German lettering saying 'Freihalten' would indicate to me that 'anywhere in Europe' is not quite correct.

Why is it not off-topic to post this picture here? First right answer wins. Three pieces of info are required to make a correct answer (what, who, where). The winner will get his handle in my next scenario with a rank and position of his choice (within the confines of the engine).

Also, was not part of 12th SS together with a part of Panzerlehr rather busy fending off Operation Martlet (started on the 25th), the attack by XXX Corps using 49th West Riding supported by 8th Armoured Brigade (another 180 tanks on the left flank of the Odon attack). I have been looking for confirmation that it really was a part of 12th SS, but only have Delaforce, and I don't trust him. But that would further push the odds in favour of the British. Thanks for the answer John, good to see I can still count.

Phorncastle - I don't doubt the British charged with cold steel and all that against the Italians. I also don't know how much firepower the Italian squad could bring to bear in 1940. Not a lot, compared to a German squad in 1944 would be my guess. In CMBO, why should green troops break? They could just say 'thank you very much for coming right at us' and let rip. I have read a fair number of the generally available books containing personal memoirs, and I do not recall one instance where it said 'we were pinned down by the Germans, so our Lieutenant ordered to fix bayonets and we charged them'. Most of the time it goes 'we were pinned down a) but 14 Platoon outflanked them; and could advance no further; c) until the tanks arrived; or d) so we had to call down artillery'. Does not mean it did not happen, but it indicates that it may have been a rare occasion and it should not be modeled. Regarding ammo - not sure where my manual is, but I just started a QB to check (Ugh - I had to look ata QB map the first time in ages) and the defenders kick off with 40 units of ammo. As do the attackers.

Sorry Ian, does not make sense to me. I think that CM does model this exactly as it is in reality. Unless you are at a given point, you don't know what you can see from there. Once you are there in CM, you use the LOS tool. I would think I am being dense, but Martin does not get it either, and he is way smarter than me (not just saying that because you pad the bar bill Martin).