Gary T

This has probably been answered before but will it be possiblr to design scenario pitting Finns versus German forces? I'm just reading "Schicksalsweg und Kampf der "Bergschuh"-Division (History of 7. Gebrigs-Division) and there are some excellent maps/sketches/descriptions of the fighting between this division and the Finns as the Germans retreated from Finnland into Norway in the autumn of 1944. Hopefully the GJ won't be represented as they are in CMBO....

Hi, The (theorectical) total number of 3,7 cm Paks found in a 1939 infantry division is 75 - 36 in the Pz Jag Abt, 12 each in the infantry regiments and last, but not least, 3 in the Aufkl Abt's heavy company. Of course these limits were rarely achieved - however I think you'll find the 3,7 cm soldiered on for far longer than usually thought, especially in the 14./ companies of the infantry regiments where they were still be used well into 1943. These were the poor relations of the Pz Jag Abt and always the last to receive any new equipment. However (contrary to popular belief) any ATG is better than none. I have seen photos of them still in use in the summer of 1943 with 14./ IR 431 (note one is horsedrawn). See below - Cheers, Gary. [ April 11, 2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Gary T ]

Jason, According to the Gliederung from 3rd January 1939 there were 3 companies in the infantry regiments and a further 3 in the panzerabwehr battalion. The panzerabwehr battalion was certainly in place in 1935 not sure when the infantry regiments gained theirs. I'll have a look thorugh my wehrpass collection and see if I can find any pre-war members of infantry anit-tank companies. Cheers, Gary.

Jason, The regimental level anti-tank companies (14./) were an integral part of the German infantry regiment well before the outbreak of the war. They were of course then armed with 3,7 cm Pak's. They were also termed panzerabwehr kompanies instead of panzerjager. Cheers, Gary.

Er, this is a legitimate real world military tactic used since the time of Wellington. The no LOS until point blank range is its exact purpose. Not a 'gamey' tactic at all.

Well they must of done it pretty regularly - I've seen most of the Wochenschaus and a fair number have images of 88's firing in a seemingly indirect role - barrels over 30 degrees. Why would you fake 88's firing? A 150mm/170mm/210mm firing is a much more impressive sight...anyhow there were plenty of 'live' firing going on without the need to fake stuff for the camera (talking artillery here BTW not infantry fighting) I think everyone should remember the shortages the Germans had in artillery pieces and the problems of amassing enough artillery especially in breakthrough sectors. I'm sure that 88's were used to beef up such fire concentrations. After all they were equipped with the ability why not use it?

If you watch any of the numerous German newsreels from the war there are plenty of instances where 88's are being used in an indirect role in the Soviet Union.

Hi, Just out of interest I recently obtained 3 wehrpasses to members of 2.(Panther)/ Pz. Regt. 16. Apparently a number of these were found buried boxes in the Ruhr area. I missed out on two or three others before I got these. Alot of the personnel came from Pz. Abt. 116 (obviously). In turn in a lot of the wehrpasses found, most of the members of Pz. Abt. 116 came from Pz. Rgt. 1 when PZ. Abt. 116 was formed in May 1942. anyone want any scans e-mail me. Ta, Gary.

At the risk of being labelled anally retentive: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Acoording to the way the system is now, why would the Germans bother with Mountain troops if regular Heer will do the job? What good are the SS? They're no better in the game than any other German unit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If they are all armed the same, have the same number of men, the same Experience, and the same Fitness (again, new rating)... sure, that is correct. But did all of these troops in real life have all of these factors the same? No. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As far as I am aware there was no such thing as a Gebirgsjager squad in the German TOE, certainly not one armed as it is within CMBO. One could perhaps argue that because the two mountain divisions fighting on the Western Front had recently been transferred from years of fighting in the forests of Finland (6SS) and Lappland (2)they may have amassed a higher level of automatic firepower. However I hope that within CMBB the Gebirgsjager are armed as their regular counterparts - although I would like to see them keep their mountain caps. As someone else mentioned the diference between a GJD and an ID was of a divisional level (and to some extent the way the heavy weapons were dished out) than the squad/platoon organisation. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I trust you will inhibit the German forces available in Finland to SS Gebirgsjägers in the north of Finland and Lapland and Detachment Kuhlmey air support and a small number of Stugs and infantry in the south of Finland/Karelian Isthmus for a short period of time during the summer of 1944. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What!???! No 163. and 169. ID's in central Finland? You jest surely? Not to mention the Army GJ in northern Finland. For what its worth I agree with BTS over the experience\fitness versus national modifiers. As long as you have enough levels to work with you should be able to recreate any force's competence or otherwise. Cheers, Gary.

Just to add to the Frontsoldaten debate. I did a university dissertation on this subject and was told that contemporary letters and diaries written are far more valuable sources to a historian than a veteran interview will ever be for the reasons already mentioned. This is more so when considering the politics involved. After all what German veteran today is going to say he truly believed in Hitler's racist policies, even if he has changed his mind over the years? Such thoughts were not hidden in contemporary letters as evidenced by some of the quotes in the book. Excatly where can I find academic criticsm of the book? One problem is has it that it can be said that from billions of letters itcan only hope to use a minute fraction as evidence. Therefore it can not be guaranteed to be truly reflective. Obviously the greater your primary source base, hten the better this will be. There is a German website (Potsdam Univeristy project I think) which is attempting to get as many Feldpost letters as possible to create a massive resource for future historians. I can't remember the address off hand but will post it if anyone's interested. Michael - Iwas interested in you comments about the Letters form Stalingrad. There is a consensus of though that these are fakes, or at least heavily doctored...see Stalingrad: Memories and Reflections for details. Cheers, Gary.

The RASC was the Royal Army Service Corps which then became the Royal Corps of Transport (RCT) and finally part of the Royal Logistics Corps (RLC). BTW the REME are not part of the RLC. The main parts of the RLC came from the RCT, the RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps)and the ACC (Army Catering Corps).

For the some of the transcripts of Panzermeyer's trial (as well as others) go here: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/war_criminals.htm The site is part of the University of West Engalnd (Bristol Poly ) and is quite intersting reading. As for James Lucas's book it sits firmly in the 'Waffen-SS worship' corner. The eye witness accounts are of some value as long as they are taken in context but as with all of Lucas's books (mostly German subjects but the odd British one IIRC) the description of combat owes more to comic books than serious historical study (although Das Reich is certainly better than some others, mainly to its reliance on veteran's recollections). Henri - the fellow who wrote the 'German' view of the Oradour massacre is held up as a Waffen-SS expert on certain forums. I had a 'discussion' with him in which he claimed that the Le Paradis massacre by Totenkopf in 1940 was totally justified on account that the surrendering British troops had used dum-dum bullets. When asked exactly what court this was proved in and what evidence there was to prove this I got no reply. (For those who don't know the British troops were killed immediately after surrender i.e. no trial and those that claimed that dum-dum bullets were used were, you've guessed it, the same troops responsible for the massacre). [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-26-2000).]

For Christ's sake calm down everyone. Sorry if my posts have come over a s a bit pompous they weren't supposed to. I'm not here to start a flame war with Fionn or anyone else. I was just wondering upon what sources that the GJ was based on. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or a case of 'my sources are better than yours crap'. I just want to know what sources have been used for the TOE for the GJ as the squad one is something I've not come across yet, and the heavy companies are at complete odds with the the sources that I have (mostly Nafziger). And Ethan, I have not 'come out of the blue' to criticise CM. Why are you assuming Fionn is right and I am wrong without knowing anything about me? I have a very deep interest in TOE's, OOB's and divisional histories of German units in order to research the German personal documents I collect. (Plug - my site is here So when someone here, or anywhere else ofr that matter, has information that I don't have I try to glean from whence it came in order to add to my reference sources. Its not a case of who is 'better'. [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).] [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).]

Skimming of the intriguing topic of your ESP powers which have enabled you to glimpse my reference collection which, incidentally, is much larger than you may think. I'd be grateful if you direct me to the sources used to come up with the GJ squad organisation so that I may add them to my collection (have they come off the microfilms at the NA?) Is this the same source used to come up with the GJ Heavy Weapons and Machine Gun Company organisations? Because if it is that must explain it. Neither of those two formations in CM is remotely like: a)the theoretical TOE for either the 1939 or 1944 Gebirgs-Division or The actual organisation/strength returns from 1944/45 of any of the GJ divisions I have access to (which however doesn't include 2GJD yet). These differ slightly from division to division but none comes close to that in CM. We aren't dealing with the Volks-Gebirgs Division TOE are we? (which I don't have a copy of - but seeing as it never came into effect, barring the renaming of 1. Gebirgsdivision, it doesn't really count). As for Royal Marines being 'special forces' off the top of my head I know for a fact that 1st Commando Brigade (45 (RM), 46 (RM) and 3 and 6 Commando's) fought as normal leg infantry while attached to 11th Armoured Division during the advance from Normandy to the Baltic. Other Commando's (RM or otherwise) may have served in the same sort of role but I'd have to check up on that. Personally I quite like commanding troops that are referred to by their own name type (even if their capabilities are the same as regular infantry). Adds to the feel of being there. Finally, there were probably were alot of independent Gebirgsjager battalions put into action in the latter days of the war. However like most of the formations throw together by the Germans in 1945 they were often nothing more than renamed Ausbildungs-Und-Ersatz units who bore little or no relation to the capabilites (or training) of their similarly named divisional counterparts. Actually I've just finished reading 'No Triumphant Procession' and apparently Hungarian units, being trained in Germany, were used against the British in Macrh and April 1945. Any chance we could have these represented please? [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).]

I've just been looking through the available units and their composition and wondered why Gebirgsjager have their own squad type? As far as I know they were, at squad level, equipped the same as any regular Heer squad, not all SMG armed as in CM. GJ squads should really be represented by normal infantry squads. I can't see any reason for their seperate inclusion in CM especially given the fact that only one GJ division saw service on the Western Front (two if you include 6SS - which could be represented as SS squads). There is more of a case for including British Royal Marines or American Rangers. I'm not being pedantic or critical here I'm just wondering why the decision was made to represent GJ seperately with a fantasy squad organisation.

Sorry Count Sessine but I have to disagree with you about the evaluation of the WSS divisions in Normandy: 2SS: *the Das Reich division, was very experienced having fought at Kharkov, suffering heavy but not ruinous losses, before moving to France in April. Veteran, with some crack units.* Das Reich had suffered serious losses in the Ukraine over the winter of 1943/44 and, according to Dan Reinbold's Das Reich site, by the spring of 1944 it "was largely comprised of conscripts, many or most of whom were not of the same standard as the original volunteer corps (now consisting of 2,500 survivors of Battle Group Lammerding, recently extricated from the Eastern Front)." 9SS/10SS: The 9th SS came directly from Russia, near Koval, where it had been refitting with new vehicles, before it moved west on June 12. It hadn't suffered particularly high losses. Very experienced. Veteran, with some crack units. The 10th SS had been in France until March 1944, when it was send to Russia, only to return with the 9th on June 12. Also very experienced. Veteran, with some crack units.* Neither of these divisions was experienced - in fact quite the opposite. They had at most a month's combat experience. They arrived in the Ukraine in early April 1944. They participated in the link up with 1st Panzer Army as it broke out of the Kamenets-Podolski Pocket and then in the abortive attempt to relieve Ternopol. By early May both divisions had been withdrawn from the front. So about a months experience at most. In fact upon their arrival at 4th Panzer Army in April the commander had to be dissuaded from taking their full tank and vehicle compliment to replenish his depleted Army panzer divisions. He, possibly quite rightly, believed they were wasted on the two totaly inexperienced W-SS divisions and would be put to far better use by his veteran Army panzer divisions. 17SS: *AS for the 17th SS, Mitcham calls this an elite division. It was formed in October 1943 in Western France, as such had ample training and lots of veterans in its ranks.* I assume that you are referring to Mitcham's book Hitler's Legions. I would take any information from that book with a large pinc of salt unless you can check the information as it contains a large number of errors (even basic stuff like what front a certain division fought on). This stems from him using other sources with no attempt whatsoever to verify the information. I don't think anything about 17SS performance makes it elite at all (not that it performed badly). There were other formations in Normandy (Army infantry divisions 352/353 etc) who performed just as well but they are not considered elite. As for von der Heydte's objectivity you are porobably correct. But ask your self where the information about the W-SS performance comes from? Just about every book written on the W-SS in English has used W-SS divisional histories written by W-SS veterans. Hardly the most objective of sources. If you use BTS's reasoning all the above divisions should be regular at the level we are talking about i.e. trained recruits with a sprinkling of veterans. The same as some of the other German divisions. Of course you could put a few veterans in there (especially amongst the tank crew's - even some crack/elite). Of course you could push up the the W-SS fanaticism level (esp. with 12SS) to reflect better motivation. ------------------ *I laugh in the face of Fear and tweak the nose of Terror* (Edmund Blackadder circa 1570).

Well, according to this article its 1st NY. Of course he could be wrong but Private Pike's post mentions the 1st as well. I think Reynolds may have got it wrong.

This is Joe Elkins' (the Firefly gunner)story (from The Armourer Magazine): "During the dark night of 7th August 1944 tanks of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry supported by infantry of the 51st Highland Division led the left hand column of the Canadian Army through four miles of heavily defended territory on Operation Totalize. By first light the village of St Algan de Cramesnil was taken and after some confusion and delay my 3 troop of 75mm Shermans with 1 Firefly and with other troops of A Squadron 1st NY were established in the orchards south of the village. At this time on the morning of the 8th August 1944 the Germans of 12th SS Panzer Division supported by 2 Kompanie SS Panzer Abteilung 101 were preparing to counterattack the Allied advanced troops who were in exposed positions following the night march. Michael Wittmann and his troop of three Tiger tanks advanced in line ahead along the east side of the N158 Falaise to Caen road as part of the force engaged in attack. At the time no one knew this was the famous Tiger troop of Wittmann. Someone on lookout from the cover of the orchards reported seeing tanks moving into view crossing our front. We mounted and pulled forward and I saw the Tigers advancing slowly at about 1200 yards. The Tigers moved closer and at 800 yards Sgt Gordon commanding the Firefly broke from cover and ordered: "Target the rear Tiger. Fire when ready." I fired two shots. I had two hits. On my second shot the Tiger caught fire. Sgt Gordon ordered: "Reverse under cover," and I could see the German tank (probably Wittmann's) traversing round onto us. The Tiger fired and missed as we were already reversing into cover. Something caused injury to Sgt Gordon, probably the turret lid or a branch. I imagine he was probably dazed as he climbed out and I later heard he was wounded. Lt. James, our troop leader, took command of our Firefly and moved out of cover into a new position. I traversed onto the second tank, fired one shot and he exploded in a sheet of flame. The first in line of the three Tigers was now milling about trying to get into cover. I fired twice and he too started to burn. This all happened in about 12 minutes and we now reloaded, sorted ourselves out and sat back waiting. A short time later a number of tanks and infantry were reported moving up the valley from the left and onto out positions. Lt. James immediately moved us into a fire position and we saw a target at 1200 yards. I fired one shot and the tank blew up. Things quietened down now for some time. We then saw infantry coming up the slope towards us. We engaged with machine gun fire and they went to cover. We continued waiting and watching. Suddenly there was a loud bang and sparks flew all around the turret. The order came:"We are hit.All out." We were lucky everyone was okay. We all scrambled out and ran back out of the orchard. A quick glance back showed our tank burning. Bullets were flying around so we ran back to where we thought HQ was. I later heard Lt. James was wounded on the way to report to the Squadron commander. The next day I was drafted into a new crew as a wireless operator and have never fired again fired a gun." During the battle the Northamptonshire Yeomanry claimed 15 tanks and five SP guns destroyed agianst losses of 20 tanks. [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-14-2000).]

While setting up a DYO game I noticed it is not possible to purchase Vickers MG's for British (and Polish) Airborne. Any reason why this is as they certainly had them.

**SPOILER** * * * * I'm half way through playing this scenario as the Brits. Its a great scenario (cheers, Kwazydog!) although I'm struggling to make an impact in the rain One thing did occur to me though. Why have the Brits got Comets in October 1944? I have always been under the impression that the Comet did not see any action until March 1945. In fact I think you can't purchase one in the DYO set up until this date. ------------------ *I laugh in the face of Fear and tweak the nose of Terror* (Edmund Blackadder circa 1570).

Staffordshire Sod all here. Pre-ordered January. ------------------ *I laugh in the face of Fear and tweak the nose of Terror* (Edmund Blackadder circa 1570).

What's all this about paying the postman? I've ordered other stuff from USA that has been sent via USPS and haven't dished out any money. I had to sign for it though. Just pray that Parcelfarce don't break it. Apparently no matter how your package is destroyed by them, if it comes from USPS you have to claim from the USA (even though Parcelfarce have signed for it). I had it happen to me recently. I had to send the destroyed bits back to the USA in the original packaging. Totally unbelievable... One more thing I noted. Holland obviously has a far better postal service than us. Then again everything else they have, from trains to football teams is better than ours. ------------------ *I laugh in the face of Fear and tweak the nose of Terror* (Edmund Blackadder circa 1570).

double post. [This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 06-26-2000).]

Ah-Ha, That what I thought it meant . I agree with you about the vehicles although I think the Brummbar should be in at some point if Wirbelwinds/Jadgtigers are there. BTW you live in the UK don't you Andreas? (in sunny Coventry , just down the road from me). Do you fancy a blind PBEM? Say Aachen, you can chose sides? Cheers, Gary.

quote: <q>Squirrels are just rats with a powerful lobby.</q> Eh? ------------------ *I laugh in the face of Fear and tweak the nose of Terror* (Edmund Blackadder circa 1570).