Peach Operations Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi all, Has anyone else had trouble targeting the opposite side of a hedgerow with area fire? In a number of scenarios in the Road to Montebourg campaign -- mostly those with wheatfields or significant elevation changes -- I can't seem to target the opposite hedgerow with area fire, and in a few cases can't even call in indirect fire (from some parts of my side). I know that my troops can see the opposite hedgerow, because they can see enemy squads firing from behind it, but I can't target the hedgerow myself. Look -- I realize that the designers don't want to encourage gamey uses of area fire -- but suppressive fire on the opposite hedgerow is a pretty important part of the game, isn't it? Moreover, if you want to limit use of area fire on the opposite hedge, you'd want to do that for all hedgerows, not just those in fields that have wheat growing in them. I think I know what's happening here -- LOS for area fire is traced to the ground itself, whereas LOS to the enemy is traced to the enemy's head. Since my troops can only see the ground a short distance in front of them in a wheatfield, that's as far as they can area fire (unless the opposite hedge is raised up enough for them to see it). This also makes it hard to plan for the battle, since the target command only tells me where I'll be able to area fire, not where I'll be able to hit standing enemies (nor where I'll be able to hit tanks). I have to basically lower the view to the ground, and hope that I'm getting it right. I'd suggest allowing the player to target the hedge itself, rather than the ground under it. However, that wouldn't solve the planning issues, nor would it allow for suppressive fire across an open field. Thoughts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Targeting the hedge and not the ground in front of it would be more realistic, assuming the hedge can be seen. If for example the enemy is entrenched immediately behind a hedge the game as it stands ensures that you have a big problem, to get at them without saturating the area with your heavy artillery usually requires a flanking manouver. Which is challenging fun to do if you like extreme micro management, something this game enables you to do very nicely. So I guess it is a problem in one way, depends how you want to look at it I suppose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you target right in front of the Hedgerow your guys should fire into it. At least that's the way it's supposed to work. Does for walls (added during CM:SF development). Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I've noticed in CMSF that Area Fire by infantry has a "dither" built in, so that the various bursts strike around the target spot, not just exactly on it -- some over, some under, depending on relative elevations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Operations Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you target right in front of the Hedgerow your guys should fire into it. At least that's the way it's supposed to work. Does for walls (added during CM:SF development). Steve Problem is when your squad can't see the ground tile right in front of the hedgerow -- and therefore can't area fire on said ground tile -- but can still see the hedgerow itself (happens all the time with wheatfields in CMBN). That's where targeting the hedgerow directly would be useful, since it's at least a meter or two above the surrounding terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Yeah, I see your point. Unfortunately that's not possible. Trying to track vertical positioning is very, very tricky because inherently all computers have only 2D controls. Buildings are a special exception and I don't think it's possible to do this with Bocage. On the plus side, I don't see this coming up too often because terrain conditions usually allow you to see the base of Bocage if you see the upper portion. And even if you could fire into the Bocage the chances are it would be over the heads of any enemy unit behind it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Operations Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Yeah, I see your point. Unfortunately that's not possible. Trying to track vertical positioning is very, very tricky because inherently all computers have only 2D controls. Buildings are a special exception and I don't think it's possible to do this with Bocage. On the plus side, I don't see this coming up too often because terrain conditions usually allow you to see the base of Bocage if you see the upper portion. And even if you could fire into the Bocage the chances are it would be over the heads of any enemy unit behind it. I can understand the software limitations. I'd point out, though, that this DOES happen very often -- again, because of wheatfields most of the time. See the following screenshot, from the Road to Montebourg campaign: If you lower the camera to to ground level, you see that the squad does have a view of the opposite hedgerow: The squad in question has enough view of the hedgerow that it could be fired upon by someone behind the hedge; so suppressive fires in that direction wouldn't necessarily be flying over the defenders' heads. I've seen this sort of thing frequently in this campaign. Please let me know if you need more examples -- I will provide them. If we can't shoot at the hedge itself, could we be able to target beyond line of sight in situations where the shots themselves aren't blocked? That is, the squad in the above picture would be able to shoot at the tile in front of the hedge despite not having LOS, since their bullets aren't actually blocked. This behavior might be very inaccurate, but we're talking suppressive fire here, after all. In any event -- not to be a pain -- there really needs to be a solution to these kinds of situations, in my view. It happens often enough that I'd want to avoid using wheatfields, if I were to design a scenario, as well as making sure that any elevation changes don't prevent opposite sides of a hedgerow from area firing on eachother. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Yeah, I see your point. Unfortunately that's not possible. Trying to track vertical positioning is very, very tricky because inherently all computers have only 2D controls. Buildings are a special exception and I don't think it's possible to do this with Bocage. Steve Buildings have the same problem as PO is describing. If you can't see the base of the building, you can't target the building. There are work-arounds, but it kind of dilutes the immersive experience when a tank can't target any part of a two-story building in plain sight because it doesn't have LOS to the base of the building. This happens most often when the base of the building is reverse slope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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