conquesodor Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I'm not sure if this is a bug, or an intentional (or unintentional) consequence of the game mechanics. What I have seen a number of times is that my Sherman's will open fire with HE rounds on enemy infantry that are just on the opposite side of a hedgerow from friendly infantry. All too often the rounds miss their mark and hurt the friendly infantry. Shouldn't tank commanders be more cautious about choosing to fire HE when friendly units are so close to their target? If the tank has LoS to the enemies on the far side of the hedgerow, shouldn't he see the friendlies on his side of the hedge? Am I overestimating the ability of the tank commander to be aware of the exact location of friendly infantry? Even so, the commander should be aware that there is friendly infantry nearby and perhaps exercise more discretion? Thoughts? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 One way you can control this is by selecting "target light" for the shermans and have them area-fire ahead of your infantry to suppress suspected enemy positions. But then I don't think they'd use HE. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I'm not sure if this is a bug, or an intentional (or unintentional) consequence of the game mechanics. What I have seen a number of times is that my Sherman's will open fire with HE rounds on enemy infantry that are just on the opposite side of a hedgerow from friendly infantry. All too often the rounds miss their mark and hurt the friendly infantry. Shouldn't tank commanders be more cautious about choosing to fire HE when friendly units are so close to their target? If the tank has LoS to the enemies on the far side of the hedgerow, shouldn't he see the friendlies on his side of the hedge? Am I overestimating the ability of the tank commander to be aware of the exact location of friendly infantry? Even so, the commander should be aware that there is friendly infantry nearby and perhaps exercise more discretion? Thoughts? Ken This is a perfect use for cover arcs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 This is a perfect use for cover arcs. Certainly worth a try. They will sometimes fire outside a covered arc, I understand, if a high priority target appears, but I don't think they would in this case. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conquesodor Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 I can see that cover arcs may help in some situations, but in others it is of very little use. If I have a Sherman 100 meters behind an advancing infantry squad, I want the tank to engage the MG42 that is spotted 500 meters away to their front, but not the enemy squad that appears just on the other side of the hedgerow from my guys. If both enemies are more or less to my front, than a cover arc would either include or exclude both units depending on how I set up the arc. LoS to enemies seems to frequently change from sighted to hidden and back again, in which case my tank commander often switches back and forth between shooting at the MG42 and the enemy squad. Because of the hedgerows, I seem to frequently discover an enemy squad only when I am almost on top of them. (I may be getting shot at, but unable to see where it is coming from.) Too often the "friendly" HE round lands right next to my infantry. :confused: Speaking of Cover Arcs, does anyone else miss the old cover arcs from the original CM's? I liked being able to set a cover arc for armor only. Why is this missing in CM:BN? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conquesodor Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 If I have my tank area target the ground for suppression purposes, it seems you can only target a very specific area. I wish you could tell a tank or MG to area fire in a line or larger radius the way you can with artillery - or at least I'm pretty sure that is the case? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 You may need to plan your moves a little better then. I try to avoid having one unit firing over the heads of another one anyway, since with the new engine, there is no guarantee that blue on blue won't happen. I know that sometimes you may not have a lot of placement options and have to go with what you have. In that case, either giving the tank a target arc pointing in another direction or short of your friendly infantry, or having the infantry hide until the tank has finished firing may be all you can do until you get the geometry straightened out. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 In Battlefronts defense they actually under penalize you for having infantry in front of your tanks. In the real world just the concussion of the gun going of is not exactly harmless if you are a few yards in front of the barrel. It is a non trivial exercise to keep combined arms operations de-conflicted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull down Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yes, I blew up my own halftrack with a tank, which was a big surprise. I just attributed it to an improved game engine depicting friendly fire and chose to be more careful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic viking Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 In general having your infantry close to armoured vehicles is dangerous. I had a halftrack stop next to a mortar team and the next minute the mortar team was wiped out from splash damage from several rounds from a light tank which exploded against the side of the hull of the halftrack. War hurts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 You may need to plan your moves a little better then. I try to avoid having one unit firing over the heads of another one anyway, since with the new engine, there is no guarantee that blue on blue won't happen. To expand on Michael's point, blue on blue is limited to suppression effects for sub-12.7mm calibre weapons, but for HE and Ma-deuce and above, incoming fire can and will kill your truppen. As a consequence, even if you're using Area-Target-Light, make sure your Shermans are buttoned up or short rounds will hurt your dogfaces. Even though it's only suppression, if .30 rounds are hitting the foliage near your infantry, there will be suppression, and it's just as bad as if the enemy were doing it, and can lead to morale status hits, if it's persistent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 In general having your infantry close to armoured vehicles is dangerous. I had a halftrack stop next to a mortar team and the next minute the mortar team was wiped out from splash damage from several rounds from a light tank which exploded against the side of the hull of the halftrack. War hurts. Additional to this, in one game when a Sherman blew up after receiving AT hits, it created casualties in a couple of adjacent squads, including one or two immediate fatalities, and suppression/shock in a couple more distant squads. One more thing to keep in mind. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidFields Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Makes for an interesting conundrum, because I think one of the tactical maxims in these games is to essentially always put infantry in front of your tanks. I enjoy it when an opponent, or the AI, leads with the tanks. My guess is that the solution is historical: fire lanes for the tanks. It also makes me guess that there may have been even more friendly fire casualties in the bocage than we see here--those tank gunners having even less information than we have here. Sort of like what we see now in Libya, where if the Rebels don't move too far forward without telling someone they risk being hit by NATO, it would seem that units staying "in their lane" would have been important in WW2 bocage, because moving laterally could invite a nasty surprise if friendly troops started firing at sound contacts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 My guess is that the solution is historical: fire lanes for the tanks. Yep. That's what I've been trying to do. It's a tricky ploy though because sometimes terrain limits how far you can spread your infantry and armor out and still have the concentration of observation and firepower that you need. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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