vincere Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Nothing scentific yet but am starting to get the feeling that Javelins may have been nerfed when used on buildings. Also that last three that I have fired at roof have it the corner edge where the red taget line ends. I scratch my head an ask didn't they used to fairly reliably hit the centre of the roof from to down? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDash Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Pretty much all HE rounds (apart from RPGs) have been nerfed against infantry, and buildings have gotten increased hitpoints. The reasoning was because of the way infantry bunches up in game. RPG's I've noticed still wipe out half a squad, however. Whereas 120mm tank rounds/20mm HE/Artillery/Javelins etc don't do anywhere near the damage they used to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Yeah, I wonder if they tweaked this again in the last patch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Rpgs are "nerfed" along with everything else to make up for the bunching. i just checked wikipedia (the source of all knowledge and it says rpg 7 he is 23 ft radius lethal and the thermobaric is 30 feet radius lethal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Well I think the nerfing HE stinks. I just had an enemy squad caught in the open by 2 Mk-19's (yes...I said 2!) that rained 40mm on them for 20 seconds with almost no effect. They have gone too far in the nerf direction here. This is not isolated either. I am seeing it all over. All I can say is please put it back the way it was. You know...where HE actually kills people? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Rpgs are "nerfed" along with everything else to make up for the bunching. i just checked wikipedia (the source of all knowledge and it says rpg 7 he is 23 ft radius lethal and the thermobaric is 30 feet radius lethal. Um, just to make sure we're all reading these numbers, a 23ft lethality radius means the odds are that you can be killed inside 23 feet, NOT that everyone within 23 feet WILL be killed. And, of course, some poor sod well beyond 23 feet will, for sure, be killed. These are probabilities. They need to be judged based on exposure and definitions. But yeah, nerfing sucks. (Unless my guys are the target!) My understanding of this is that men, in game, bunch up FAR more than in real life. Stretching every squad over 100 meters would be a nightmare. This is a pretty good balancing mechanism. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I do not like it as a balancing mechanism. It really makes the HE have no teeth. HE kills. Period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Okay, here's how I think it works: It is not possible to have realistic open ground dispersion in this game. If a squad has 10m between men, that's 120m nose to tail for a 13 man USMC squad. Throw a few platoon around. Now you need maps of 4x4km or bigger. That is a sparsely populated field. A lot of extra CPU's. Etc. Not to mention that every man would be in his own action spot. Ow. Tighten up the open ground dispersion, and it all gets workable. Ahh, HE is a problem... Assume a circle of lethality for round x is 25m. If it lands in the middle of a 120m squad, 2 men, first and last may wound to yellow, the next two may wound to red, and the middle 5 will be in the lethality circle (25m radius is 50m diameter). Adjust as you see fit. Now, take that 120m squad, compress them into a line that fits into 3 action spots (you know, there are three teams) and that means they're all in a 24m distance. Hmm, if a 25m HE shell lands in their midst, the furthest man is INSIDE the inner half of the lethality circle. That would be far too destructive. Hence, the nerf. Now, the problem: when men go into a building, they CANNOT stretch out to 120m for 13 men. They are restricted to the size of the building. In that case, a shell landing inside with them should cause much more mayhem than it does in the game. (Usually: wall structure, internal divisions, luck, etc.) That's why it's there. IMHO. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDash Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Rpgs are "nerfed" along with everything else to make up for the bunching. i just checked wikipedia (the source of all knowledge and it says rpg 7 he is 23 ft radius lethal and the thermobaric is 30 feet radius lethal. RPG's in game are far more lethal now than 20mm HE from a LAV or Bradley, which is not the case IRL. I'm not sure if RPG's have been nerfed, maybe they have, but they were probably over-modelled to begin with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat69 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I have not played CMSF yet -- like old weaponary more -- but imo c3k you miss the point. If there were 13 soldiers with distance of 10m between each other that does not mean 120m! In generaly soldiers move offset when patrolling (i.e. not clear if and where the enemy is). So suppose we took your 10m on a 5m wide rode. This would mean a stretch of 104m, if the road was 7m wide it would be a stretch of 86m. And other than that in cities things get more cramped and dangerous, there is no way around that. A squad does not spread out 100m in a city if under attack. That way there are more dangers when being attacked by HE but less places attacks can come from. On the rest, well I am not sure how many soldiers the US uses on attacking cities of a certain size, but I suppose the multitude of field manuals out there could give an answer, though I do not have time to read them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Not to bitch but I just played SNAFU and my Mk-19 caught the Reds in the OPEN again....and I mean OPEN. Rained 40mm all over them with minimal results. It seemed like you actually had to hit the soldier with the 40mm to hurt them like there was no fragmentation. I would rather just have HE effective and deal with the tighter squads. Much of the fun and realism is gone when you cant kill with HE. Now I know that the US can split squads and the Syrians cant (exception AB) but I still would like HE back. I play the Reds as well myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDash Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I hear you Lanzfeld. The game has gone too far in one direction now, and it gets to the point of ruining the suspension of disbelief at times. Especially guys surviving JDAMs and such. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 Let's not forget that inside buildings cover and interior walls are abstracted. and with that in mind and unscientifically comparing RPGs with 155 and other HE does raise questions. I may try a game on basic to see what happens more closely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not seeing any of this, played many battles in both CMA and CMSF and can't say I noticed any incidents of people not dying when they get HE chucked at them in all kinds of environments, be it hand grenades, 20mm gun fire or 115mm cannons. Going to do some messing around in the editor after I finish playing this scenario. NATO H2H Dutch mech vs. something something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Ok I'm firing up good old House Cleaning scenario which is basically all about Mk.19s and Javelins being shot into a heavy building full of people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 15 seconds into the battle a Mk.19 Stryker fires 5 rounds into the heavy hospital building and kills 3 Syrians. Soon followed by M203s, M136s and Javelins all fired into a heavy building into different stories all causing casualties in a very believable way. 8 killed 4 wounded in approximately 15-30 seconds. A few minutes of this firing and the entire front side of the building is filled with charred bodies. So, uhh, corrupt install or patch or something? Edited to add I am playing CMSF with all modules installed in order and patched to 1.31. CMA is 1.02. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Try 40mm in the open. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Tried, first burst caused 6 casualties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Played 5 TCP/IP quick battles with my friend and we witnessed no anomalies (apart from Canucks and Dutchies getting profane amounts of units in QBs.) All weapons caused casualties, some very bloody fighting. Played lots of Red vs. Red mechanized battles. Fun! Played Prophet and the Mountain where RPG-29 thermobaric rounds wrecked havoc on marines inside buildings from 60m away at almost point blank range. Intense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 This is very strange as I am using 1.31 and my 40mm might as well be made of foam. I have seen it too many times to be a quirk. Does not pass the smell test here. Thanks for your testing though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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