Use of Aufklarungs and light vehicle units??

[Apache]

Well, I played the demo for the first time over the last few days to get familiar with the engine etc in anticipation of Normandy next year and found it to be very enjoyable and much improved over the first time I played a couple of years ago. The boxed game should arrive soon and I have NATO downloaded and ready to install.

Playing CMBO etc to death for several years has paid a few dividends as with the missions on the demo I seem to be doing quite well with most forces surviving quite well, if not fully in tact. The combat abilities of the Leopard and Abrams help!!

One problem I have come across though is effectively using units such as the isolated Aufklarungs sections in "Die Festung" for instance. In the CMBO games I would generally use infantry to probe the terrain I was putting tanks into to at least identify if not clear AT defences etc. In this mission though the terrain is so vast that I found that I didn't really have the time to use the infantry to push in front of the Leopards that I wanted to get to the hill to the right of the deployment area on the opposite side of the map as they needed to make their way to the main objective. The long range abilities of ATGMs mean that infantry can only really be used to spot/clear close quarter positions but it's still something I'd rather do, especially if the terrain is dense/urban.

One option would have been to use bounds to advance the tanks with the stationary Leopard providing overwatch and this is largely what I did but the bounds were longer than I'd perhaps have liked (some unfamiliarity with the vehicle speed here and the bounds need not have been that long really). Given the length of the bounds I thought I'd need I thought I'd use one Auf/K unit to dash ahead in their vehicle and scout out any positions. Bad move! Bit rash and a bit dumb as it died PDQ from fire from the fortress itself. Not concentrating as much as I should have (this time) I lost a Leopard to an ATGM I think.

Later in the mission I also tried rapidly driving the JDM FO to a building and again, their vehicle was KO on the way, luckily they still got there. The two ATGM (Milans IIRC) jeeps (Wolf?) are also very susceptible and I have yet to find more effective ways of using these foot/light vehicle mounted ATGM teams. Their vehicles are very vulnerable also and have a good target profile if they placed in a good overwatch position so i tend to dismount the teams low down, 'Move' them whilst in cover and then 'Slow' to get to a high point so they can see and use their weapons effectively. They attract fire quickly when they fire but that's life for ATGM users I suppose.

Got me thinking really as to what i might realistically look to use such units as Auf/K for, particularly when they are stragglers of one or two? Their vehicles are very vulnerable and they provide not too much help on the firefight front so to a degree I figured that out of the way until everything is cleared is the best way to go with them, using them to support the infantry as they go in when most major battlefield threats have been KOd. Not a very proactive use of them though. I could have used them for spotting from the hill but once the tanks were there they provided it and they got there more safely and of course provide much needed heavy firepower overwatch.

One thing that did occur is that the Auf/K could have been used on the hill to the right flank of the tanks to provide some flank security from sneaking ATGM armed infantry or even as spotters lower down the hill to watch for anything creeping up the valley while the tanks remained on the crest giving overwatch on the fortress (I wouldn't just leave tanks 'crested' normally but most AFVs had been KO'd and there were 3 of them so anything popping its head up didn't last long). The only other thing I thought of was to use them to occupy one or two of the buildings scattered on the battlefield to scan from rooftops for any infantry or even concealed vehicle contacts I may have missed (I did get a Marder immobilised by a vehicle from somewhere and judging by the shredding sound and multiple line tracer it must be a Shilka).

Any other thoughts on these straggler type units which despite their high mobility seem very fragile in any kind of offensive task?

One other query, does the effectiveness of FOOs improve (time or accuracy) for instance the closer they are to the target or is LOS all they need? Not toyed with getting them closer yet as the dedicated FOO seems to get most missions in within a minute if needed so it seems better to keep them way back.

[DaveDash]

I haven't got NATO yet (T-3 hours, actually) so I can't comment on the Aufklarungs, although I assume they're some sort of armed Jeep. However with light vehicles in general, if there are ANY form of ATGM threats they sit firmly in a defilade position and stay there.

For example, in the USMC campaign they love to give you CAAT teams, which are a bunch of HUMVEEs with various weapon systems. 99% of the time they're useless, given the ATGM threat and engagement range that CMSF is played in.

The -only- way to scout in this game is with infantry. So your light vehicles either sit tight and act as a mobile reserve, or use them to pop up, fire off a couple of rounds, and reverse back in order to entice ATGM shots. Another use is to transport sniper teams, FO teams, etc through dead ground or area that has been cleared.

As for FO teams, LOS is all they need. Also, it helps if they are not under fire. It is best to keep them way back, in an area with good observation fields of the enemy positions. If you're playing a human, don't be too obvious about where you put them. Also, you may not know this, but at the beginning of a mission (the Setup Phase) you can call down immediate fire missions without having LOS to enemy targets. As soon as you start the mission your fire missions will come down on target, regardless of whether or not you have LOS.

[Apache]

Hmmmm. I've got NATO but not the game yet!! Tomorrow hopefully!!! Yes the Auf/K units are in Fenek AFVs IIRC. I actually found them a lot more useful than I originally thought as I played the demo more (I just keep playing the scenario over and over to get better at it rather than spoiling the NATO module ones on practice). They do have some quite good fire power for their size but are clearly best out of the main line!! I plan to try and use them more for spotting etc too now.

The Marders I find very useful (doubtless I'd have found them more so if I'd seen the manual entry about giving them an 'open' command for the Milan to be used!!!). The 20mm auto cannon packs a punch. I did try one thing which did not work (unless i just don't know how to do it yet) but one time I played I had one of the mobile ATGM (Milan) teams on a building roof. It did really well and took out two separate MGs on top of towers when they opened up. As it had done so well I sent the team towards a nearby Marder to see if they could pinch some Milan rounds (the jeep team had only the 3 and the Marders carry 6). No sir. Wouldn't let them 'acquire' :-( I may need to explore this more or maybe its not possible. I also could not quite figure why this Milan team did so well this time around when, on other tries at the mission, despite being on the same roof they never shot at anything despite targets arising in similar locations??? Maybe those times they just could not see or acquire them. Or......maybe I'd done something with the team, command wise, that I now can't remember to make them more effective.

The infantry I find though are VERY fragile indeed, as the manual says. Yet to perfect how to use them well, especially with regard to assaulting buildings etc. ATM I'm inclined towards blowing the blazes out of everything with armour/arty and even 20mm before the infantry get anywhere near them because if the buildings have live defenders in an infantry team can be wiped out really fast!!! With the demo mission I found I did better running the infantry up close to the buildings in Marders (once the enemy AT threats had been dealt with) and clobbering the buildings with 20mm. Even then an MG all but wiped out a squad that disembarked because I THOUGHT I'd dealt with or suppressed all the defenders.

Not really got the handle on sniper use yet. I tend to find them better as observers and spotters than the use that their name implies. They may well come into their own in the full module/missions.

The Leo is top notch though, and I think it's just the A4 in the demo!!!

I remember the pre-planned arty strikes from CMBB/CMAK now, thanks for reminding me. Must admit though I do like to keep a lot back for known targets later in the mission as I think it's not too difficult to run out! Air strikes I am REALLY judicious with and only ever use the JDS to call in.

[tyrspawn]

The Aufklarungs are useful in the campaign because they arrive 15-20 minutes before the main body and are good for establishing OP/LPs to interdict enemy with air and fire support. They have good forward observers.

They'd be pretty useless in a situation where your main body is already there.

[Apache]

Yes i suppose the units will be parcelled out more to reflect RL in the campaign.

Nice work with the Walkthroughs by the way. Watched a couple already and plan to watch the lot but not until I've played each mission (spoilers etc). In fact I think it's watching the two I did that pushed me towards getting CMSF and NATO. I planned to get the Brit module but something about the German kit just appealed more. Also, it's the newest module with all the 'bells and whistles' I thought :-)

On a completely different note when I patch the full game after I load it on I think I will hold off on the 1.31 patch until 1.32 comes out. It seems infantry access to P/fausts has been reduced BUT in addition to taking them off the teams there are also no launchers on the Marders so no section AT at all until it's fixed.

[DaveDash]

You want 1.31 for radios and C2.

The Marders I find very useful (doubtless I'd have found them more so if I'd seen the manual entry about giving them an 'open' command for the Milan to be used!!!). The 20mm auto cannon packs a punch. I did try one thing which did not work (unless i just don't know how to do it yet) but one time I played I had one of the mobile ATGM (Milan) teams on a building roof. It did really well and took out two separate MGs on top of towers when they opened up. As it had done so well I sent the team towards a nearby Marder to see if they could pinch some Milan rounds (the jeep team had only the 3 and the Marders carry 6). No sir. Wouldn't let them 'acquire' :-( I may need to explore this more or maybe its not possible. I also could not quite figure why this Milan team did so well this time around when, on other tries at the mission, despite being on the same roof they never shot at anything despite targets arising in similar locations??? Maybe those times they just could not see or acquire them. Or......maybe I'd done something with the team, command wise, that I now can't remember to make them more effective.

The MILAN missiles are in the ammo compartment of the Marder, so your teams cannot acquire them. Also, AFAIK you don't need to unbutton them for fire the MILAN, they'll do it themselves.

With ATGM weapon systems (infantry or vehicle) if you want them to use their ATGM rounds do an area target on the building.

The infantry I find though are VERY fragile indeed, as the manual says. Yet to perfect how to use them well, especially with regard to assaulting buildings etc. ATM I'm inclined towards blowing the blazes out of everything with armour/arty and even 20mm before the infantry get anywhere near them because if the buildings have live defenders in an infantry team can be wiped out really fast!!! With the demo mission I found I did better running the infantry up close to the buildings in Marders (once the enemy AT threats had been dealt with) and clobbering the buildings with 20mm. Even then an MG all but wiped out a squad that disembarked because I THOUGHT I'd dealt with or suppressed all the defenders.

With your infantry, you have to have constant suppression on the buildings you are approaching. Again, use the target command to area fire the building as you're moving your infantry up. If you're using HE rounds, be careful to shift your fires away as your infantry approach.

When you are assaulting the building from close range with your infantry, and you suspect enemy forces are there, use an AREA TARGET on the ground floor as you run inside. Your squads will chuck grenades through the windows and suppress the enemy inside.

Don't race your IFVs up, you're just asking to be taken out with an RPG. Establish a supporting base of fire, suppress enemy positions, and then move your infantry up under the cover of fire and/or smoke. Remember Marders can suppress just as well from 600m as they can from 100m.

Snipers are best left to their own devices. They are not great spotters, but put them in an overwatch position. When they do identify enemy targets they will suppress them. Don't give them target orders, they do better left on their own. The main use for snipers really is to fix enemy and suppress them, allowing your infantry to manoeuvre in for the kill. Snipers CAN also harass light armoured vehicles like BTRs, etc.

[Apache]

Ah, that explains why the scrooges wouldn't let them have the rounds. I would have thought the same with the Milan on the Marder too but in the online manual on p.18 there is a 'Note' indicating the 'Open' command has to be given first: http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_flippingbook&book_id=17&Itemid=427

I did try the 'target' command with the deployed ATGM but found it less effective than when they had acquired the target themselves (e.g. IIRC the target survived on top the tower but dies when they shot it themselves).

Good point re giving the infantry area targets as they assault. I would normally supress heavily with HE and then switch to 'target light' as the infantry got closer but in the scenario building preservation was required to a degree. Probably my description was out but I didn't rush the Marders up as such. They just closed so they could target more effectively and provide closer support. I put no infantry on the ground anywhere near them while there were threats and even then got a team half wiped out (the squads are only 6 in number!!!) as an MG sprang out of nowhere. Playing on WeGo can be a little more tricky with switching from IFV HE to light though so I will need to get timings right!!!

Should probably ask a mod to edit the thread title to 'NATO module - getting the best from German units?' or something similar!!

Yes I've come to regard the snipers as place and forget really but as you say they do provide eyes on certain areas. In this mission a sniper on the hill was quite effective at calling down mortar fire on two towers and on woods near to the objective.

In what context are you referring to C2? The added benefits of the extra radios? I've gone through the change log and that seems to be the main benefit (albeit quite significant) that will help me, just trying to figure if it is worth losing the infantry fausts until such stage as the 1.32 patch (in which BF state the glitch will be fixed and launchers will be on the Marders again) is released.

Great game though and better than I thought it'd be (e.g. with too much modern tech and 'fire and forget' about) albeit I'm not sure I'll play it THAT often once Normandy is released. It will provide a refreshing break now and then mind.

One thing I'm not sure about is some of the game sounds. I'm not familiar with modern weaponry but the 20mm auto-cannon and MGs sound more like robot woodpeckers to me than anything I'd associate with gun fire! I've seen a lot of reference to AKDs sound mod and have downloaded v 1.2 from the Repository to try when the game comes, hopefully that will deal with some issues (there just doesn't seem to be THAT many files in the folder though so I hope I've got the right one. I also downloaded the NATO symbols mod but not sure whether I'll just leave the game defaults in.

I should probably ask a mod to change the thread title to 'NATO Module - using German units effectively?' !!!

[Erwin]

1.31 also gives the Canadian engineers their satchel charges.