How do you retreat in good order?

[ravells]

I'm kinda hoping JasonC will answer this:

I'm playing a scenario where I was being outflanked and outgunned, the terrain was pretty open, summer daytime with some scattered trees. Inf only, no smoke, no MGs.

I tried doing a mass withdrawal and now all my men are broken or routed...do you guys have any tips about how to pull back without ending up routed or dead?

[Cuirassier]

This thread should be useful:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=516721&highlight=withdrawl#post516721

Given the limited description you have given above, I would say you withdrew too late. Sometimes poor terrain may prevent you from withdrawing altogether. However, if you are trying to retreat when you are already *outflanked* and *outgunned*, then you are doing it much too late.

[ravells]

Brilliant! Thanks! I am already outflanked and outgunned, but I'll make sure it doesn't happen the next time!

[SKELLEN]

I agree with Cuirassier that you withdrew too late I'm afraid. You need to try and anticipate what the enemy is up to and think about where and how you would attack, if you were in his position.

In your situation a fighting withdrawal is probably your best option using some of the most experienced units for covering fire whilst the less experienced units withdraw. You mentioned scattered trees, which you should be aiming for, although they offer only little cover and concealment it's much better than open ground. Also don't be too concerned about every unit as the A.I. forces units panicked to reach for nearest cover, just keep a leader or two nearby for them to recover.

Once you have some unit's withdrawn use them to cover your most experienced unit's withdrawal, but don't try to withdraw too many at once as you also need to return fire with the intention of reducing/hampering the enemy's full attacking abilty. Even if you only manage to pin a few heads it all helps your withdrawal hopefully.

[ravells]

It's all too late. I used the 'withdraw' command and most of the units broke/routed. (and as this is a PBEM game I didn't want to ask the question too early).

[TheVulture]

As others have said, withdrawl needs to happen pretty early. In my (limited) experience, once you get to the "now looks like a good time to withdraw" point, you've already left it too late. If you do it while it is still possible, it feels like you are leaving too early; that you could probably hold the position for another turn or two. That's the time to leave. If you try to delay that extra turn or two, odds are your guys won't make it out at all.

Also, make sure your guys are in a place where they can break LoS with a short move. If they have to move through 20 meters of scattered trees to break LoS they will probably take a beating while they flee. A gamer specific practical tip is to use cover arcs to change facing without being spotted. A face command, or a move command in a direction they aren't facing, will have them rotate on the spot and usually cause them to be spotted. Using the cover arc to face them in a certain direction on the other hands points them the right way without the extra movement making them any more visible. Wierd quirk of the system.

[ravells]

Thanks Vulture, I didn't know that about the cover arc command.

[JasonC]

The vulture is right about the feel and timing aspect. But from the initial description, the questioner had and has a more basic problem - his choice of defensive positions, probably due to the way he is "reading" cover.

A good defensive position is one that allows the defenders to break LOS entirely at will by a short rapid movement. This gives them the ability to accept or deny battle.

The action of exercising this choice and breaking LOS to cut short an engagement that no longer looks favorable, is known as "skulking", and it is the key defender's tactic in close infantry combat. No ambush is correctly "set" or planned if the defender can't "skulk" the moment the attacker achieves fire superiority.

How is this done? By proper reading of the terrain and choice of ground.

Cover isn't just something that gives you bonuses when you are seen in it and shot at. That is the least of its uses, actually. Its most important use is "differential LOS" - preventing most of the enemy force from seeing you entirely, "isolating" on only chosen attackers or only chosen moments.

If a ridgeline is used as cover for a position, for example, the moment when you choose to shift back to the reverse slope is the moment you "skulk". If a block of woods is used as cover, the moment you leave the treeline for the deep interior, that can't be seen at all from outside the woods. In urban terrain, the moment you leave the front windows of the first line of buildings, for positions out the back door completely in the building "shadow", or across the next street to the next row of buildings.

When you pick a *major* fighting position it needs such options or it is a poorly chosen position. For one MG nest or outpost, you may not have such options, but for anything sheltering a major portion of your defending force, they are essential. (With MG nests you typically "skulk" just by ceasing fire and hiding before the enemy gets close enough for a full ID. That also works with ATR and snipers and similar "stealthy" shooters).

[ravells]

The terrain was really hard to have breaking LOS positions, it was a few small scattered trees tiles and mainly open ground and the odd small building. It wasn't an ambush situation but a meeting engagement where I made a rush for the flag and then found the enemy (I had no idea about what the set up boundaries were) were flanking me and there were lots of them...I think it was a mistake too far to repair!

[JasonC]

If you aren't defending and get caught in local cover only, you can't afford to run. You have to fight it out in the cover you've got. You can however break contact in building cover by exiting out the back, provided the enemy are only on one side of you - less than about 120 degrees of arc. If they are around you on two sides, you can't afford to leave the building.

Other elements of your force have to take on the job of freeing the "trapped" men from enemy fire. This happens routinely. No single subelement can always take care of itself. Any piece can get into a fix that it can't get out of on its own. The rest of the force has to figure out which of the enemy are the most vulnerable and critical, wax those enemies or pin them down, to let the pinned men get out of danger.

Suppose men in a house can skulk out the back because one enemy platoon has worked far enough around their flank to see the back side of their building. Then an FO or group of mortars blasts that platoon first, or smokes if it they can't blast it outright. The trapped men in the house can then skulk out of fire, long enough to rally. If the flankers haven't been dealt with permanently, back into the house you go after the "breather", but if they have been then the previously trapped men are safe.

Such teamwork is always necessary to keep the force alive. It is why smaller groups are just "meat" - the enemy has so many ways to do the like to them, and they can't respond on their own...

[ravells]

Thanks Jason. I made the fatal mistake of withdarawing back to the building, it broke LOS with some of the attacking units but the ones who still had LOS fried a few of the men. Prior to that I tried using all of my squads to target one enemy squad only in the hope of breaking them one by one, my opponent's fire was more dispersed which had the effect of pinning many of my firing units so my fire wasn't so effective.

Thanks everyone for the kind advice which I will use in future scenarios.