how do you kill tigers?

[steam_bucky]

I was wondering what the best tactics for killing tigers were - they seem pretty brutal in the game, and I am looking for any help.

[steam_bucky]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=86232&highlight=tiger

check the forums first....

[dieseltaylor]

I am sure there are many more threads. I am an exponent of the Valentine IX [57mm] which mobhanded can do in a Tiger. They are cheap but low rate of fire means you may not want to buy them faced with ordinary German tanks.

I quite rnjoy the enmeny buying Tigers provided we are a huge map - on a small map it is pants as you cannot work the angles.

[JasonC]

That thread mostly discusses the king tiger issue, while vanilla Tiger Is are much more common in CMBB.

The solution to Tiger Is is the 57mm towed ATG from hiding. It will kill from 400 meters through the hull front, and 700 meters through the sides, even with reasonably high side angle. The best initial engagement picture is within 400 meters plus side aspect; that way you can kill it even if it turns.

SU-152s will kill them, but have low ROF and some tendency to "cower". Especially avoid "hunt" or sitting in LOS to trade shots with them. You want to shoot and scoot on "fast" to a position with LOS and back out of sight again to reload - one shot only - and make sure you don't waste time rotating at the firing point (or they will nail you). Also make sure they are facing elsewhere and buttoned before you try it (and preferably actively shooting at something else).

Captured StuGs will also kill them, quite efficiently. Needs rariety off naturally.

AA is also solid - 37mm being my preferred method for it. You break their tracks or give them gun damage or both. Shoot them while they are someplace without useful LOS to your other forces, as immobilizations are by far the most common outcome.

Avoid like the plague relying instead on close range flanking "charges" by vanilla T-34s. A T-34/76, even with APCR ammo and perfectly positioned 100 meters away at 90 degrees to the side of a buttoned Tiger I, is a 3 to 1 underdog against it. You only get 2 shots before it turns enough to bounce the hits, and the behind armor effect from just 1-2 penetrations is insufficient to make you a favorite. (1/3 "no significant damage" results, etc). It takes a platoon in that position to be the favorite, and you can't count on that sort of thing. Flanking charges by 2 or more T-34s from opposite directions are fine as a way of taking down a solitary StuG, but Tigers are a much tougher proposition.

The right thing to do is bring the right weapon, and treat your T-34s merely as bait to draw them in front of hiding 57mm ATGs.

[John Kettler]

steam_bucky,

Welcome aboard!

There are two basic ways to get there from here, plus a novel third that doesn't work in the game. The first route is high velocity, epitomized in the very high velocity M1943 ZIS-2 57mm AT gun/T-34/57 ZIS-4Valentine IX/X (think scaled down Panther cannon)--1250 m/sec firing "T" ammo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1943_%28ZiS-2%29 and the 100 mm M1944 field gun, also found on the SU-100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_mm_field_gun_M1944_%28BS-3%29

The second route is the big smite, using either enormous KE in a heavy projectile (SU-152/ISU-152/ISU-122/IS-1/IS-2) or a honking HEAT round (122 mm M-1938 howitzer/SU-122 firing HEAT in direct lay that pierces 100-160 mm) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_M1938_%28M-30%29

The third route is the death of a thousand cuts, which light flak only crudely approximates in the game but can be much worse in reality. During my Panzer Elite days, I came across a German combat damage report online for a Tiger 1 company that fought at Kursk. The entire unit was unfit for combat because not a tank was fightable thanks to Russian ATR teams which had shot up the cupolas to such effect that all in unit vision block spares were exhausted, sidelining the force until replacements could arrive. Not only that, but numerous TCs were temporarily sidelined by eye and face injuries, and several required major hospitalization because their faces were smashed when vision blocks and brackets were torn loose by 14.5 mm impacts. In CMBB, light flak of 37-40 mm can get M-Kill, F-Kill and, if victim crew quality is low and/or the gun fires long enough, can force an Immobilized tank crew to abandon. I M-Killed two Tiger 1s in CMAK with 40 mm Bofors fire, only to lose both guns to return fire from my victims.

I left out the 85 mm AA gun/SU-85/T-34/85, since it's marginal vs. the Tiger 1 frontally and hopeless vs. the Tiger 2 under the same conditions. New ballgame, though from the flanks! I've lost Tiger 2s to T-34/85s from the flank at ranges of a few hundred meters while fighting in fog. Infantry can be very embarrassing, especially if equipped with captured Panzerfausts, fairly common late in the war.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

steam_bucky,

Ramming was also done historically, but I'm fairly sure it isn't modeled in the game. It might give you an M-Kill, though. Caidin's The Tigers Are Burning has a ramming incident account from Kursk, with the burning Russian tank being heroically driven smack into a Tiger 1's side

http://www.battlefield.ru/en/articles/173-tank-ramming.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

steam_bucky,

The heavy KE solution should've said something indicating all the projectiles before the 122 mm HEAT round are APHE (AP shell), as opposed AP (shot). Sorry for the miscommunication! Tiger 1 and Tiger 2 both suffer from turret traverse rate issues, with the former being Very Slow and the latter Slow, nor is this compensated for by the real world ability of these tanks to quickly pivot in the direction of a new threat, a capability not modeled in CMBB, further compounding the problem. JasonC can fill you in on deficiencies in the way CMBB treats certain Russian projectiles that posed a significant threat in reality but don't in CMBB.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

Only one key ammo modeling issue to understand - don't try to beat 1943 Tiger Is with Russian 85mm, either AA or SU-85. The 1943 ammo is "nerfed", and you will just get one "shell broke up" result after another. Even against the sides at longer ranges or any serious side angle. Even against the front of StuGs at medium range. Basically, don't rely on the SU-85. In 1944 the Russian 85mm ammo modeling improves and the T-34/85 is OK once it appears. By then there are better options though. Take a later model IS-2 for example.

Also don't try to use the SU-122s. Their HEAT ammo has the punch to do the job, but the game won't give you enough rounds per vehicle to give them any chance at it, really. Those are strictly infantry smashers in CMBB therefore. The SU-152 is better, it is the only "animal killer" fully modeled as such in 1943. Don't worry about the low ammo load, the shots are so infrequent it won't matter. (In 1944 the ISU-122 is fine, much superior gun, the same as that in the IS-2. But the IS-2 is better protected if you get for that heavy a hitter).

The last gamey optimum vehicle to mention is the rare T-34/57. It can kill StuGs and Tigers (the latter preferring a side shot, too). The Valentine IX is cheaper, but the gun in the T-34/57 is superior, and so are the mobility (by a long way) and the anti infantry fighting power (from adequate machine guns). It is a simply superior anti-tank tank to the T-34/76. Rariety prices are the only reason not to take them, and if your opponent is taking Tigers all the time, feel free to answer with T-34/57s and captured StuGs that can actually take them out.

[dieseltaylor]

In game in October 1943 a platoon of 3 T34/57 is 180 points more than a platoon of 5 Valentine IX - essentially seven Valentines for the cost of three of the T-34. The T34 gun is marginally superior head-on at close range and better at 30degreees offset so you make your choice.

I prefer the Valentine and its numbers because it means there are more chances of flank shots and both tanks will do penetration out to 1000 metres, Tactically for the Russian you are playing to cripple his Tiger usage rather than kill head on - you may get a penetration but it may not be a kill and you will be dead ......

Incidentally in game the ROF of the two tanks are 7 to 6 not hugely different. Six Valentines will always outface a Tiger head-on as the ROF actually sees Tiger's cower as they apear to know that the 6pdr can kill so if they do not die early they generally go into hiding. This is against the computer though - as I have never had a battle where I have had the luxury of having 6 Val's to a Tiger. : )

[jtcm]

Were charges with T34/76s to get angles against Tigers actually used in real life ?

[John Kettler]

jtcm,

The grim reality of war, especially Russian style warfare, is that the outranged opponent must close the distance if he is to fight. Naturally, it's best to do this while in defilade, but the steppes offer tremendous fields of fire and not much cover, which is why even modern Russian tanks are so low in vertical profile. Russian doctrine was to come rolling in, firing on the move. While the odds of any T-34 getting a hit this way are small, the sheer volume of fire from massed attacking armor can and will cause casualties and affect morale on the receiving end, particularly if the targets have never had this experience before. Also, Russian armor will mass fire in platoon or even company volleys against key threats, basically smothering the target. The object of the game was to get close to the heavy German armor, then kill it from the flanks and rear with Arrowhead shot, which is "T" in the game. There were few Tigers, but hordes of T-34s, and the Russians were quite prepared to accept terrible casualties in order to neutralize the threat. The T-34 is fast and can close range rapidly, so it comes down to how many targets can X Tigers handle in Time Y before the T-34s are in so close that simply engaging them becomes difficult because the closer the threats get , the more angular separation their movements generate, making them hard to track. Recommend you read Cornish's Images of Kursk in the section Tanks Are Burning Everywhere for some harrowing descriptions of how the Russians attacked, as experienced by the Germans, and Rotmistrov's account of what happened when two opposing forces ran into each other while each attacking.

Coming to grips with the Tiger 1s at Kursk

http://www.military-art.com/mall/images/dhm1022.jpg

Here's an ideal Russian outcome. Note the number and types of hits, the repeatedly cracked armor and the several penetrations.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/3949167270_0a99b417a5.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[ravells]

I'd just like to say a big thank you to Jason C and John Kettler, for all their advice, not just on this thread but generally. You two are always there to help us newbies and for that I am eternally grateful.

[John Kettler]

ravells,

Speaking for myself, you're welcome! Now, if we can just get JasonC to publish a CM book. That would be worth reading! His knowledge and in-depth research are simply astounding.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Here's a fantastic thread covering not only undermodeling issues for Russian antitank weapons in CMBB but also offering some balancing solutions and nasty Russian options for QBs.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84251&highlight=T-34+gun+undermodeled%3F

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

As discussed in another thread the best way 'game-wise' to model this Russian charge is to use the order "Shoot and Scoot". With a T34 on hard dry ground you need bounds of 100m.

The effective is that your tanks goes 'Fast' forward, stops, fires and then Fast forward again. They seem to get a morale boost this way and there is less tank cower. Each move you will cover about 200m ish but less of wet ground, rough, etc.

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Interestingly enough, fire from the short halt was standard Russian practice at least through the T-62. I suspect this was because their stabilization systems weren't yet fully worked out.

Regards,

John Kettler