some "unfair" Roads to Leningrad scenarios

[JasonC]

"You'd think they'd know the distance between here and there in their own country"

Russia is 1/6th of the earth's land surface.

Sure they will have major towns and road and such on maps. But every useful target reference between Riga and Leningrad to 10 or even to 100 meter accuracy? Not a chance.

And no, putting a round within 1-3 kilometers of the target is not remotely sufficient. You'll never see the fall of shot, other than on wide open steppe (where you won't get the distances right without surveyor work even if you see plumes etc).

An artillery arm that can't survey is a hamstrung artillery arm. Anyone who has ever been in a battery advance party knows this, it is blindingly obvious. Take your disagreement on the matter up with Stavka, they wrote the staff study that pointed it out, not me.

Anyway, this has gotten more than a little ridiculous.

In more important news, I've finished the first 4 scenarios described above (with some playability tweaks) and will upload them to the Proving Grounds later today (I expect). I'll try to get to some additional scenarios in the same genre by the weekend or so...

[jtcm]

Yippeeeee !

[JasonC]

I am happy to say that the following 4 scenarios are now uploaded to the Proving Grounds -

Check the batteries (dawn kradschutzen raid)

Crossing guards (lopsided opposed stream crossing)

Elephant hunting (KV-2s in the woods vs. schutzen)

Red Custer (BTs in a village vs. combined arms assault)

Enjoy, and comments welcome...

[JasonC]

Also, for those interested who already know about VASSAL, a module for this game using that system is available for download here -

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=2f6ea99f292f3a748c9e7c56ba37815fe16057edb74c210f

(You still want one of each playing pair to own the game to use that, understand... But only one of the playing pair need do so).

For those who don't know it, VASSAL is a system for keeping track of everything in a board wargame in computer-file form, to aid PBEM games. The site is here -

http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

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[JasonC]

See, ridiculous. I'd rather play CM...

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

the problem with arty and maps is that maps tended to be relatively inaccurate due to various issues, part of which were inherent to production of maps. IIRC the inherent error of margin for a good 1:50 000 map was around 30 meters on average. and the map you've got might be 1:100 000 or worse, and the map (thru number of versions) might be based on Napoleonic era data. i am not exaggerating. usually maps were considered quite worthless. it was the arrival of effecitive air photography based mapping that changed things dramatically (though not what comes to elevations).

knowing your position and target position is also just one part of the needed data. you also need to know things like temperature, air pressure, shell velocity & weight and so forth, if you want to be accurate. armies produced all kinds of tools to make this stuff faster. still, due to the number of variables, and due to the relatively high accuracy required, any purely calculation based fire is going to miss the target by some hundreds of meters. small calculation errors simply add up. some of the stuff may be very hard to calculate accurately, due to differences in shells, propellants, individual gun wear and things like changing wind speeds. calculating all that stuff takes time and you have to recalculate it again every time.

to the surprise of some, post-war OR studies found out that such precalculated fires were so inaccurate still in 1944-45 that less than one in ten had been effective.

thus, to make fires faster and more accurate, you would have a forward observer guide the fires (spotting rounds or not) to the target.

for most nations the FO would acctually have to report the changes in relation of the firing unit to the target (not in relation of forward observer himself and the target). so he needs to know the position of the battery and he needs to imagine a line from the battery to the target. he then needs to be able to report the needed changes from the viewpoint of the battery, on both two axis, as degress (minutes) and range. so instead of saying "left 200 meters, drop 150 meters", he would be saying something like "zero minus 14 degress 50 minutes, 5950 meters". not rocket science but often not as easy as one would think when you add other practical difficulties into it.

there were other types of fires as well of course. preregistered targets and such. and there were exceptions, especially across nations.

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[JasonC]

Meanwhile, back on the original topic, I am pleased to report that the next 2 scenarios in this package are now available at the Proving Grounds.

The Open Road features a strong German panzer kampfgruppe trying to drive along a wooded road against a Russian rifle blocking force. The Germans have a difficult task in terms of time and terrain, but a very strong force.

Situation Normal is a motorized infantry attack across a stream and into a village defended by Russian rifle forces. The German force is much stronger than the defenders, but half of the infantry is late, and the Russians have better artillery support than usual.

Both are best head to head as the AI can't be expected to "get" either situation fully. The AI will defend OK in the first, in the second it might fail to use its artillery effectively and so make the fight easier than it is meant to be.

(You can also, of course, give the AI the stronger German attackers in either fight).

[undead reindeer cavalry]

I'm curious what number of rounds on pre-registered targets in Army Group South's area were fired in the opening days of Barbarossa by the Russians. I mean really front line units, not the divisional MLR.

From what I understand the positions actually facing the Germans were just garrisons on the actual front line and they were bypassed and then later reduced. What kind of support do they have initially, and what causes that to change?

Also ooc, are the garrison troops on the front line literally from the division behind them?

continuing this off-topic discussion, sorry.

there were NKVD border troop regiments who, as i understand it, had only light arms. don't know if there were NKVD arty units on the border, but i'd imagine garrisons had at least some arty of their own.

the regular infantry divisions were in 1-up stance and had arty as normal. their arty did start firing about one hour after German fires ceased. there were also Soviet airstrikes soon after those. so there was Soviet arty from day one.

fire at preregistered targets is ineffective if the fire is not observed. even if the fire itself would be accurate, you don't know what preregistered point to fire at. i don't know how many shells the Soviet divisions got off. IIRC Finnish divisional arty firing blind at preregistered targets in summer 1944 got off only something like 2000-5000 shells. the fires caused minimal losses, because they were totally unobserved (Soviet fires had kicked up dust & soil cloud 200 meters high).

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

The front garrison units were not observing fire on pre-registered points on June 22 and 23?

i have no idea.

are you getting at something with these questions?

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

i quickly browsed some books but couldn't find anything about un/observed fires. i don't have Glantz' old symposium book about the frontier battles though, it might have something eventho it is written from German perspective. i couldn't make myself look at smaller studies and papers which might include reports of that level.

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[Corvidae]

Would it be fair to say that in the first 2 weeks of barbarosa, the average quality of Soviet troops in the border zone was generaly green or conscript?

Would it be plausable that a reduced company of rifle infantry might be told to man a roadblock? (1 Coy CO, 2x platoon of 3 squads of 1941 infantry. Plus 2 attatched platoon COs?)

Would they have 4x 50 mm mortars and 4x maxim guns... and a single 37mm AT gun?

What sort of German forces would they be expected to try to stop?

[JasonC]

Green. They had been trained; conscript is really only appropriate for recently impressed civilians who had not even been through basic, and were tossed into combat anyway because circumstances demanded it. That was common enough by the fall but not for the border fights.

37mm are rare even in the 1941 force, a single 45mm would be more likely. The heavy weapons might be as you have them if that is meant to reflect a battalion level MG platoon assigned to the force (which is plausible), or if only the company organic stuff might be half that. In either case, they might also get the 3rd platoon coming to help after contact, from right left or rear.

The force they might try to stop? Just about anything, but bigger than they are. Could be recon, cycle, and tank heavy - the leading elements were. But not necessarily, it depends on how side-show their particular road was. Could be just 2 companies of plain infantry attacking of a line of march as they arrive, with only HMGs and 81mms for support (at the low end I mean).

Take the recon idea, though. Then the Germans might have

20mm PSW platoon (3 or 4)

motorcycle aufklarung platoon with 4 kubel, 2 trucks, one HMG-34 added.

panzer platoon with 4-5 Pz 38 or Panzer III short (one type only)

the next element might double the infantry and tanks above, or it might be a company of schutzen in trucks (3 platoons plus a heavy weapons platoon with 4 HMG, 2 81mm).

The Russian dilemma is then stopping 7-18 armored vehicles with one anti-tank gun. Terrain obstacles have to do much of it for them - a woods road, or ditches, with improvised barriers (roadblock, or just wire crossing the road - able to stop trucks - or simulate "abatis" by switching some road tiles to "rocky", put in AT ditches as 2-level depressions 1 tile wide with rocky terrain type, etc).

If the Germans are reckless they could get a couple of PSWs knocked out and the leading platoon of scouts shot up, before the panzers manage to bite seriously. Then the Russians would try to skulk away. Whether they make a try to close the road again after the panzer pass is another open issue - if the Germans have an "exit armor" VC it makes their real issues clear. They can easily outshoot a small roadblock force if the Panzer stick around for it, but if the Russian infantry "D"s, do the panzers wait around to intimidate them or move on?

[Corvidae]

Ok JasonC, I've posted the map at The Proving Grounds.

Its called Speed bump '41.

There are no briefings as yet, Just a map with units and reserves.

Taka a look and tell me where I buggered up.