Assistance on old CMBB Scenario, Winter Wonderland

[Heinrich505]

There is a scenario on the CMBB disk, called "Winter Wonderland," by Dan "Berlichtingen" Brown. It is not at The Scenario Depot II or The Proving Grounds.

It is a battle at night, in a blizzard, on 11-16-1941, on Hill 747, in the Central Region near Rzhev. It is a short one, only 15+ turns, all infantry. It is actually quite interesting, and based on some small unit actions that occurred during that time.

I've tried several different set-ups for Axis vs. AI. I've tried varying CEB for the AI. I usually end up with the Russians slaughtering my troops.

First off, does anyone remember playing this scenario?

Second, any suggestions? Is it winnable as the Germans?

I thought I would throw this out to you all to see what you think.

Heinrich505

[Vark]

Oh! I remember Winter Wonderland, it was one of the first scenarios I tried when I bought CMBB and it led to intense frustration. My troops were gunned down mercilessly or if they tried to move tactically, exhausted by the freezing wind and deep snow. As soon as a gun went off, even German guns they'd throw themselves down and try and sneak away, not a good idea in heavy snow.

I went back to the drawing board and devised night combat sandbox scenarios and realised that to have any chance my troops would have to be: placed as far away as possible to each other, otherwise when one engaged a target the others would pin, or worse starting shooting at each other. This was especially true when they detected a foxhole but no enemy. I can still remember looking in horror, as I was planning a move, that units had issued fire orders against each other, argh!

Spoiler Alert*********** Spoiler alert************ Spoiler alert*****************

I finally managed a major victory by attacking on the left and right flanks but only after the troops had crossed the road and moved down the hill. The right flank then moved toward the centre, paralel with the road, the left straddling either side of the road, for added speed The force in the centre moved to the far right edge of its set up box and proceeded to move right. The Russians are on the roads and occupying a reverse slope ambush so hitting them from the rear flank causes huge amounts of panic, on both flanks. I'd tried earlier to move further down the hill before executing my attack but I ran the clock out.

One of the keys to success are the flame throwers which cause instant panic, sneaking and rapid exhaustion, for the enemy. Used as an area fire weapon with a delayed move order, plotted to retreat the unit beyond visibility range, means that the operator normally expends only two bursts a turn. Just make sure thay are in command radius and working with one of the tank hunters who act as close protection and scouts, the grenade cluster is a very good suppressive weapon and can be fired on an area fire command, (alas normal grenades can not be used as such) I lost quite a few men taking the central flags but once I'd occupied the foxholes the AI counter attacked and my reserve platoon led by the Company commander made short work of them. I liked the scenario because it played to all of CMBB's strengths and the blizzard, at night , removes borg spotting. Hope that helped.

[Heinrich505]

Vark,

Thanks so much for your suggesions. I have been so frustrated with this scenario, and kept coming back to it from time to time, trying to figure out where I was messing up, because it is a heck of a challenge. I rarely crossed the road, so I never came at the Russians from the back side. Very interesting.

I tried bunching everyone up to attack en-masse, but for some odd reason, my troops were ducking, bobbing, and weaving.....when their fellow squads opened up. I thought I was seeing things, but now that you confirmed it, yep, they were freaking out from friendly fire. Evidence that night battles, in a blizzard, can really be chaotic.

Thanks very much.

Heinrich505

[JasonC]

I won it easily. The trick is simply to avoid attacking broad front across the open snow, and instead to roll up the flanks, especially the right flank. Attack up the road staying in the woods lining it. The tank hunters are grenade teams, short life expectancy but can stun the Russians into pinned states before your main squads close. FTs similar, area fire them from just out of LOS. Then you just need to many-on-few them with squads and keep moving to get through them all. Another key thing is to use move as the movement rate when out of contact, (don't "advance", you'll just get exhausted in the deep snow) and move to contact to return fire as soon as you spot someone. Also, keep a screening front line LOS distance ahead of the main body, and the main body is safe as houses. They can't see you without the leaders stepping on them first.

[Heinrich505]

Vark and JasonC,

Whoa, I managed a minor victory. This is somewhat amazing for me, as I'd had so much trouble with this one in the past. It was close though, as I managed to secure the center flag, and had just about secured the left flag. There was a death struggle between Lt Wieland's senior Feldwebel and a senior Sgt from the Soviet side, going one-on-one. This, right after the Feldwebel went hand-to-hand to eliminate another HQ Sgt. A squad was coming up to help though. The right flank was more iffy, and no one got that flag.

Not sure if I can post a screen shot. I know how at The Scenario Depot II, but not sure here.

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Heinrich505/WinterWonderland.jpg

Thanks for your suggestions. They were really appreciated.

Heinrich505

[Vark]

Glad to be of help. I remember thinking that maybe this was not a good battle to start off my CBMM experience, so I went off to play "A day at the zoo". I got so protective of the troops I made a complete hash of that one, the grey skies, burning buildings and forbidding woods got to me. I had been used to the psychadelic greens of CM, the new terrain seriously affected my mood and therfore my perception of the game. Interestingly, I do not own Shock Force but the one to one scale, showing individual troops curl up pinned or being killed had a rather salutary effect (I watched some AAR's on YouTube).

Still, Winter Wonderland is one of my favourites, and although I found a solution I spent many an hour watching the replays in disbelief. My favourite, was my bunch them all up and sneak across the road with a scout leading, this was before understanding the 8m rule. My scout died, then my platoon died in less than 20 seconds, all gone! It's a shame the damn borg spotting removes most of this 'what the f**K just happened' tension.

[Heinrich505]

Vark,

I actually can't remember which CMBB scenario I played first (most likely some small action scenario in Stalingrad), but I mainly tried the tiny/small ones first. I'm sure Winter Wonderland was up there among the first, and I watched in amazement - just as you said -as I gingerly eased men up in the deep snow, and then watched as all hell broke lose, men were panicking, running, lots of screaming for Sanitäter, none of my guys were shooting, and in moments, I'd lost everyone....just silence and the cold blizzard wind blowing through the bloody snow. Quite a shocker.

I played and enjoyed the "Day at the Zoo," in contrast to the slaughter that occurred in the blizzard in Russia. I can understand your feelings on that one though. Sort of an inauspicious start with a new game. I just couldn't get over the Winter Wonderland scenario though, and would periodically come back to it, because it is such a challenge, and because there had to be some tactic I was overlooking. And there was. It just took some help from you guys to point it out.

Heinrich505

[Vark]

Question, will we get to a point where games are so 'realistic' that our hind brains protective function refuses to allow most gamers to place their soldiers in danger, let alone kill things. Or will any degree of abstraction suppress the function. Would you play a game where tank crews shrieked horrifically as they were trapped in their blazing steel tombs, or tumbled out and writhed on the ground burning. What happens when those little pixels look so lifelike (photo-realistic) that we risk becoming affected by our games.

I like CBMM because the figures are doll like and an abstract, I felt a slight sense of unease watching Shock Force and I played Full Spectrum Warrior a few times but found it too personal. Sorry for the Friday night ramble but it is a subject that has always interested me.

[Heinrich505]

Vark,

That is an interesting question you pose. I have thought about that myself, and sometimes your imagination is worse than the animations. I can remember seeing my cardboard soldiers gunned down while crossing a street in ASL, or those terrible melees in the rubble of Stalingrad, which seemed to go on for turn after turn, with more cardboard soldiers being fed into the vicious hand-to-hand struggle, and sometimes you were left with no survivors from either side. Everyone was eliminated.

I don't know that I'd care to hear the screams of the trapped tank crewmen, or see them burning when clawing their way out of the flaming tank. Some may think I am being melodramatic, but it would bother me. I've seen so many documentaries where the actual tank crewmen were unable to continue with their interviews, when they tried to describe the horrible deaths of fellow tankmen after their tank was blown up.

There are those who would laugh and say, lighten up. It is just a game. It isn't the real world. Don't get all wrapped up about it. I would have to agree with them too, as it is just a simulation. But it does make you think about what it was like to really be in combat, and game designers try to approximate their perception of what it was really like. I assume they draw abstract lines for players sensibilities though. Still, when you look at the final battlefield after playing a CMBB battle, there are a lot of those little figures lying on their backs where the squad was finally eliminated as a fighting force. It makes you think about the cost, if you take the time to reflect a little on the contest.

Some games are quite graphic, especially the first person shooters. I know that Red Orchestra is one, where blood founts out from soldiers when they get hit, or shredded by grenades. It does get your attention, and helps in the "immersion" effect that the gamer is trying to approximate.

The Close Combat series is another example. In CCIII and CCIV, you have the 2D top down view, and you get all 10 squad members running about. They scream quite convincingly when hit, and panic and flee when their morale is exceeded. You get to see all 10 bloody bodies where they were killed, although they are very small on the screen. The animation for the flame throwers is really quite nasty, as the whooshing sound of the flames will then trigger the horrific screams of the sprites as they are burned, and they are shown as blackened and bloody figures when killed by a flame attack. I have never hesitated to attack with the flamethrower teams or the flame HTs, but I did feel a little off about them after the attack. Odd how that is for some of us.

A very interesting point you bring up, and one I hadn't thought about too much lately. We won't see this in CMx1 though, as it would hog too much of the computer's resources. Friday night rambles can be good things....thanks for sharing.

Heinrich505