New Move Order for next CM Title?

[Uedel]

Hi,

i play CMSF a little while now and there is one thing i really Miss.

A Command like the Hunt (where Unit Move until they have Contact with Enemy's) and are in a Combat Ready Situation, but they dont Stop if they see an enemy but Move until they reach their Waypoint.

Currently u have the Joice between Normal (Walk in the Park mode)

Hunt (Stoping if an enemy is seen)

and Quik or Fast which exhausts your Troops very fast

Slow/crawl is of no use for more then 5 meters then your Troops are on the end........

So is there a Chance to get such a Slow Moving but Combat Ready Command in the Future CM Titles i really think it could enrich my Tactics.

[flamingknives]

Can you describe how such movement would work in real life?

[Gpig]

Do you mean HUNT in the way it worked in CMx1?

The unit would HUNT until it sees an enemy. If it sees an enemy unit, it engages that unit. If the enemy unit is then destroyed, or goes to ground (invisible to the HUNTing unit), the HUNTing unit continues onward toward its HUNT waypoint.

Like that?

Gpig

[JonS]

Add a covered arc to your hunt order. That way the unit will only stop if:

a) an enemy unit appears within it's covered arc*, in which case your unit will cancel the hunt order and engage the enemy, or

your unit comes under effective fire, in which case they will cancel the hunt order and go to ground (and perhaps attempt to move to better cover), or

c) it reaches the final waypoint.

For bonus points, define "effective" in this context ...

* There is a bit of fuzzyness around this, IIRC. Better trained units will adhere to the CA more closely. Poor quality troops may behave as if they didn't have a CA at all.

[Uedel]

well yes i mean a Hunt which doesn't stop the Unit when they sight an enemy Unit but keep processing forward but slower then normal walk and with weapons raised and alerted to see enemys. The Unit should only Stop if they come under suppressive fire or are realy so close to an enemy unit that they `have´ to fight.

But good Tip with the Covering arc, it is at least a sort of workaround for me. Didnt know this........

[JonS]

Covering arc, it is at least a sort of workaround for me.

It isn't a workaround, it's the way it is supposed to work. It was introduced to ... CMBB? I think, for exactly this reason.

[Uedel]

realy? Cant remember but played CMBO to CMAK until i puked and didnt notice it anyway i would still like it working without setting a covering arc......

ah and JonS looking at your Posts Counter i say u write to much and play to less hehehe ..............just a little Joke

[flamingknives]

I'm still interested in reading how this compares to real life

[JonS]

i would still like it working without setting a covering arc......

Fair enough. Can you lay out a heuristic which would have it working in all situations and circumstances?

Day, night, close terrain, open terrain, vehicles, infantry, a unit with mostly shortrange weapons, a busy battlefield, a quiet battlefield, a unit with mostly longrange weapons, that conforms with my intent even when my intent chages, ...

Having to set the CA is another step, but it is so variable (damn near infinitely variable) that as an approach it has no difficulty dealing* with almost any situation thrown at it.

Jon

* OTH, something I would like is an 'engage from' distinct from an 'ebngage to' CA. Imagine you have set up an ambush. You've got your CA set up so that when a unit comes within 100m your guys will open up. The probalem is that the ambush will be tripped when the first guy enters the CA, and everyone still outside will not be part of the ambush. What I'd like is a pair CA that says 'when the first unit crosses THIS line, start firing and engge any units within THAT line.

eg

X . . . . . . . . e1 ] . e2 . e2 . e2 . e2 . e2 . } . e3 . e3 . e3 .

where

X = your unit

. = place holders to get the spacing right

e1, e2, e3 = enemy units

] = inner CA

} = outer CA

The enemy units are moving from right to left.

The e1 enemy unit has just moved inside the inner CA. In a traditional game only that unit will be engaged. however, by being able to set the outer CA all the e2 units will be engaged also, while the e3 units will be ignored.

From a practical POV, the inner CA would need to vanish as soon as that line is tripped, leaving the unit with just the outer CA, which would function just the way CAs currently work.

[Uedel]

well the heuristic could be like the one from the Normal/Move Command like it is now but with more "Caution" Means a lower trigger for the Unit to hit the dirt and an improved Spotting as it is moving with the indention that the area is HOT.

sorry if i cant describe it fully to your understandings but English is not my native language and it is a complicate to tell subject

Ah and your Covering Arc Idea sounds great would like it also, but i witnessed that Covering Arcs are often overiden by AI in 1.10 when enemy targets are close or clear to see even if they are way of the CA

[JonS]

it is a complicate to tell subject

I know, which is why I don't understand why you'd want to reduce it to a one-size-fits-all solution.

[Uedel]

bcause i am lazy as hell

[missinginreality]

relevantly, does anyone actually use the "walk in the park" MOVE command for units? I keep off it just coz it looks way too casual for most scenarios. It would be good if there was something between QUICK and HUNT that was less indifferent. Maybe it's just a case of changing the animation but keeping the response. I'd personally like to see the wall crossing animation a little more responsive to situation too; currently the jumping over thing seems a bit out of place; aren't units meant to roll over low walls in RL to minimise exposure and silhouetting?

[salwon]

I use move when I need to go through an area I know is clear and time isn't really an issue (often while waiting for a barrage or something).

I like the OP's idea of Hunt being more like the CMx1 Hunt - stop and engage until the problem goes away, then continue. I believe that was a vehicle command though, I don't remember ever using it with inf. Something like the old "advance" would be nice, except with 1.10 Quick does more or less the same thing (return fire and keep moving). I play in RT, so it's easy enough to just give the Hunt order back, just slightly tedious. JonS is right I think, there would be too many variables if you want to get your units to do "something" when they make contact. The easiest way to define something is "wait for further instructions" which works fine for now.

Think of it like this (CMx1 -> CMx2):

Advance -> Quick

Move To Contact -> Hunt

Hunt -> sorry, out of luck. Micromanagement works in a pinch

[hoolaman]

relevantly, does anyone actually use the "walk in the park" MOVE command for units? I keep off it just coz it looks way too casual for most scenarios. It would be good if there was something between QUICK and HUNT that was less indifferent. Maybe it's just a case of changing the animation but keeping the response. I'd personally like to see the wall crossing animation a little more responsive to situation too; currently the jumping over thing seems a bit out of place; aren't units meant to roll over low walls in RL to minimise exposure and silhouetting?

Yes I agree.

The CMx1 order that seems more appropriate is "advance". Move, in CMSF might have the same intent, but your guys don't look like they move with the kind of alertness that you would have in a warzone.

Quick and Fast seem like the fast move from CMx1 where they put their head down and sprint but that is not appropriate in most situations either, taking a big hit if they come under fire.

There is also assault for a final attack, but smaller teams and most Syrian units can't use the CMSF assault.

In otherwords there are missing orders in CMSF, you really need a move to contact type order in terms of speed and disposition.

Bring back SNEAK, ADVANCE, MOVE TO CONTACT, ASSAULT (whether it uses the bounding movement or not).

[missinginreality]

Move, in CMSF might have the same intent, but your guys don't look like they move with the kind of alertness that you would have in a warzone.

Maybe it's a simple animation change then? Coz a unit that is under a MOVE command has a more pro-active response to coming under fire than QUICK and FAST and is more "situationally aware" but less so than HUNT. if the units under MOVE actually looked like they were in a combat zone rather than a mall it might serve to assuage some of the grieviances around movement orders without needing a whole lot of new code.

[jenrick]

I'd simply split movement into a speed and a tactics options. You'd have sprint, double time, normal, and crawl. The faster they are the less attentive they are, there's no way to really hunt for a target and sprint that's as effective as moving at a normal pace and looking. Additionally they have a much more obvious profile, aren't as stealthy etc. Sprint is obvious hair on fire running (the good old fashioned 3 second rush), double time is a fast movement when not under effective fire or just needing to get there in a hurry, normal is a walking pace when you're paroling looking for trouble or administrative moving, crawl is kinda self explanatory.

Then have a tactics choice assault, move to contact, scout, sneak. Assault is move to the location designated through enemy fire if neccesary, do not stop unless the unit breaks or pins. Move to contact is move forward, but if you make contact with the enemy stop and engage (the hunt command currently in use). Scout is move till you make spot an enemy, then go to ground and wait for orders do not engage initially. Sneak is move until you spot and enemy then back up till you can no longer see them, do not engage.

Having these options be mixed and match creates some great options for movement. Crawl/assault under heavy fire in thick brush, great way to close. Sprint and sneak, trying to move a missile team to flank as an ambush. No point in getting them on the flank if the enemy knows they're there.

Shoot you could set generic formation tactics so that all units are going to normally move in movement to contact or sneak as you want them too. Set your dismounted scout squads to Normal/Scout and have them work forward and then stop and hide when the find the enemy, no need to set the tatics on each move command.

missinginreality: just saw your post. I agree if the animation protrayed a unit under "move" orders as being on patrol it would make sense. Also the description of the movement states in the manual make move sound less then useful. Right now "move" just looks like they're getting ready to load in the 5 ton to head out for their FTX, rather then in a combat zone.

-Jenrick