Multiple Penatrations to knock out

[TheHIV]

Im am pretty new to cm and I was playing the cmak demo (I am waiting for the full version to arrive), anyway I was playing the level where the germans get 15 Pzr 3s and I was playing as the Americans.

towards the end Of the level I was kicking the germans ass's when one of my shermans and grants started attacking one of the panzers, they both scored at least 5 penatrations(I just took 2 percacet and I cant remember how to spell penatation) each in one turn. This went on for another turn and the crew did not bail out until the third all the while the tank kept moving and returning fire. I guess I dont understand how this is possible. All the accounts of real combat describe armor penatrations as a traumatic time to be inside a tank and the crew would invariably bail out. Can someone explain this to me.

PS. I am really sorry about this incoherent question. I assure you my spelling and grammer will improve once the drug have worn off, (I just had my wisdom teeth removed a day ago)

[Kineas]

It's possible that the first penetration killed the tank. But your units don't see the kill immediately because the 'fog of war'. So they keep firing at the target until they are sure - when it burns or they see the crew bailing out

[stoat]

Not all penetrations are killer blows. Hits to less vulnerable parts of the vehicle and partial penetrations often do little other than affect the morale of the crew. Also, CMAK, unlike CMBO, has a "death clock" feature, which means that after you have knocked a tank out, it can take up to three minutes for the crew to leave and for the tank to be labeled as knocked out. However, if the tank was returning fire, this would not have been the case. All hits aren't penetrations, and all penetrations aren't fatal. I can sympathize with you, as there is nothing worse than thinking you've penetrated and destroyed a Panther, only to have it turn on you and light you up.

If you ever have any questions, this is a great place to post them as there are always folks around to answer them, and some are very knowledgeable when it comes to game mechanics.

[John Kettler]

TheHIV,

Am quite familiar with wisdom teeth being extracted. They did such a good job on me that when I had mine out, I was all set to go, only to find out they were already done!

As for your tank frustration, and I don't know the scenario at the moment, but speculate you might've been fighting Panzer III Specials, which have spaced armor on the hull front and maybe turret front as well (seen them both ways). The face hardened armor tended to break up certain types of projectiles, so that may be part of your problem.

From what aspect were your shots hitting? That could've had a lot to do with it, too.

The modeling's very detailed and tracks residual KE in the penetrating round. Those that penetrate marginally don't do much. Also, the German tanks have armored ammo bins, making them much harder to kill if penetrated, and there are places you can hit on a tank and penetrate without doing much in the process. I know of a case where an M5 Stuart encountered an 88 at around 100 meter range, and the 88 crew put a shot clean through the entire turret from side to side, leaving both tank and crew fully functional, as evidenced by the fact that the crew reversed back into cover, albeit with better turret ventilation! There are accounts at www.Tankbooks.com in which a Sherman driver wound up with an unwelcome visitor, a penetrating unexploded AP shell between his legs. In ROMMEL'S WAR IN AFRICA, Heckmann describes a case in which a Panzer III took a penetrating hit smack into a turret ammo locker, so hard it broke open the shell cases. The poor gunner saw the thing poking halfway through the turret wall and fainted!

Finally, because of the clever and realistic Death Clock, there's a lapse, barring a K-Kill,

between when a tank is fatally hit and when your side can tell this has happened. Thus, the tank was dead when some of your shots were still headed down range. This overkill is entirely realistic. British practice, for example, in the Western Desert was to keep firing until the target burned. This a) made sure it was dead and made sure it couldn't be recovered and returned to battle, a burned tank being good only for scrap as far as its armor envelope went.

Hope this sheds a little light on what happens under the CMAK hood.

Regards,

John Kettler

[TheHIV]

Thanks guys the death clock and fog of war makes sense, though I didnt realize that the fog of war in the game was that extensive. And after the first couple of penetrations it did stop moving and shooting, but it still registered as as alive so I kept pelting it.

[JasonC]

It also simply might not have been dead yet.

Smaller caliber penetrations in particular can have quite limited "behind armor effect". It can take like half a dozen ATR penetrations to KO a halftrack, for instance. Which middling rounds like the US 37mm, the chance of a full kill from a single penetration may be only around 1 out of 3, with some of the others doing the dread "no significant damage", and others inflicting one crew causalty or causing panic, only.

It also appears to get harder to get an immediate kill as the penetration gets more borderline, and as the target vehicle gets larger (in tons, I mean). A T-34 hitting a Tiger I from the side at point blank range only has about 1 chance in 6 of killing it in the first shot, from my testing.

You have no control over the string of "BAE" rolls, any more than the to-hit rolls. You just have to pump in rounds until the critter stops moving, pretty much.

[stoat]

The scenario is Fruhlingswind, by rune, but was adapted for the demo by dropping the platoons of PzIVE's and Marder III's and replacing them with two additional platoons of Panzer IIIM's (the US also has a vehicle change). Nothing special about the III's, there are just 15 of them.

[John Kettler]

stoat,

Beg to differ! As you can quite clearly see by the pictures, an M has the aforementioned spaced armor and the 50 L/60. Thus, it's by definition a Panzer III Special. If you're fighting these things from the front, no wonder you're having problems! Should also tell you that if you happen to catch a tank moving and kill it without K-Killing it, it can roll for an appreciable distance before halting, making it still appear "live" to your frustrated gunners. Though there's no M pictured, you can clearly see the spaced armor arrays on the L and the N.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz8.htm

Should you still harbor doubts after that, here's a photo series of an M at Panzermuseum Munster in Germany. Spaced armor on both the turret front and driver's plate are clearly evident.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gallery/pz3gal.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

I have just completed a game where a Panther lived through several penetrating shots from the rear by a 6pdr[57mm]. Immobilised, two rear turret penetrations ,and a rear engine deck hit, and I think one other. The crew ended the minute shocked and the game ended!. I am not unduly put out as nothing is certain in war. BTW immobilised tanks tend to have crews bailing out so penetration is not necessary to kill a tank.