Locksley Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Does anybody know historically what the composition of tank formations was? What I mean by that is in a tank platoon (or squadron?) were there 3 Sherman Vs and a Firefly or did Fireflies fight together for example, or 4 Churchill VIIs and a Churchill VIII for close support? Just wanted to know to make my force choices more realistic. Ta Tom 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Most British tanks in NWE fought in troops of four - three 75mm armed tanks (Shermans or Cromwells) and one 17pdr armed tank (Firefly or Challenger) AFAIK, Challengers were only issued to units operating Cromwells, but Fireflies appeared alongside Shermans and Cromwells Comets, due to the better gun, were fielded as homogenous units (i.e not mixed troops) Churchills operated in troops of four 75mm armed tanks. CS tanks (Close Support: those armed with 95mm howitzers) were issued two to a squadron HQ (with 4 troops under them) in addition to two 75mm tanks (IIRC) Crocodiles and AVREs only appeared as units on loan form the 79th Armoured Division Archers crop up in the AT units of Armoured Divisions. (probably in troops of 4) Stuarts appear in recce troops of up to 11 tanks, while Scout cars appear in troops of 8. I would imagine that these were not often deployed en masse 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: Most British tanks in NWE fought in troops of four - three 75mm armed tanks (Shermans or Cromwells) and one 17pdr armed tank (Firefly or Challenger)I'll take this opportunity to ask if your sources show that the proportion of 17pdr-armed tanks was increased late in the war? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flamingknives: Most British tanks in NWE fought in troops of four - three 75mm armed tanks (Shermans or Cromwells) and one 17pdr armed tank (Firefly or Challenger)I'll take this opportunity to ask if your sources show that the proportion of 17pdr-armed tanks was increased late in the war? Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: Comets, due to the better gun, were fielded as homogenous units (i.e not mixed troops) Churchills operated in troops of four 75mm armed tanks. CS tanks (Close Support: those armed with 95mm howitzers) were issued two to a squadron HQ (with 4 troops under them) in addition to two 75mm tanks (IIRC)Peter Beale's 'Tank Tracks' gives a Churchill Squadron as five troops of three tanks each, plus Sqadron HQ with 2x CS, 1x HQ and 1x ARV Challengers only seem to have been issued to 11th Armoured's Recce Rgt. Recce Rgts normally did not have Fireflies, but instead just Cromwells - IIRC. The Canadians had Fireflies in 4th Armoured, but then again they had Shermans in the Recce Rgt. 8th Armoured Brigade seems to have concentrated Fireflies into one troop per squadron. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Peter Beale's 'Tank Tracks' gives a Churchill Squadron as five troops of three tanks each, plus Sqadron HQ with 2x CS, 1x HQ and 1x ARVI have seen one or two sources that stated that Grant tanks were organized in three-tank troops in mid-'42. I'm a little vague about how many troops to a squadron, but I think it was four at that time. Cruisers of all type were in four-tank troops, also with four troops to a squadron. Plus whatever was in headquarters troop. I don't recall how Matildas and Vals were organized. I'll dig around and see what I can come up with. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Seen that thing about the Grant troops as well. I would think that 'I' tanks would have a standard 3-tank platoon, if it was not the British army, where anything that is possible has been done at some point in time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flamingknives: Most British tanks in NWE fought in troops of four - three 75mm armed tanks (Shermans or Cromwells) and one 17pdr armed tank (Firefly or Challenger)I'll take this opportunity to ask if your sources show that the proportion of 17pdr-armed tanks was increased late in the war? Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Cheers for the replies thats all really useful stuff. Don't know if your source extends to the American formations? Do AT formations like Hellcats fight as a troop or in with the Sherms? The other thing I was wondering was with the Americans is it more acturate to have an even mix of marks Shermans (75mm, 76mm, E8 for example) or did a few 75mms fight with a 76, a Jumbo or even a Jackson? Thanks again , look forward to any replies Ta Tom 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 AFAIK, TDs like the Hellcat and Jackson were only used in TD units. Tank units fought in Shermans for the most part. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 And in the US army, a company of Shermans was often a mixed lot, depending on what had been delivered from the depot. Somehow I fancy that the 76s went to the armored divisions first and then filtered down to the independent battalions attached to infantry divisions, but I may be dreaming. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 There is a fairly extensive list of bn-level TsO&E here. Sadly, they don't always specify what the individual vehicles were exactly (e.g. 75mm/75mm or 75mm/17-pdr Shermans), but it does give the platoon/troop organisations, and an insight into the godawful number of 'other' vehicles in an armoured unit. Regarding the British and troop sizes, it seems to me that the was a quite remarkable amount of variation, with the standard being the exception rather than the norm (eh?). IIRC, various regiments 'decided' for themselves to vary the size of troops, and ran with a three-tank, five-troop orgn till late in the war. This seems to have been particularly common among Guards and/or independant armd bde (infantry support role) units. Frankly, it would probably be easier if you asked something specific like "What was the troop organisation of 6RTR on 24th August, 1944", rather than for general guidelines (Having said that, for the British in 1944, 3 x 75mm Shermans plus 1 x Firefly in as good a place as any to start. In 1945 change to 2 plus 2) Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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