Controlling Infantry

[SlapHappy]

Are there going to be any changes in AI or ability to manually control infantry? Right now it is difficult to play tactically because it is difficult to easily get squads to do anything useful.

How about demo video of the changes with the new LOS rules? Will infantry be more survivable than they are now? Right now they die in droves.....

Webwing...does the new LOS rules make infantry any more hardy in a firefight?

[Webwing]

Hey Slap,

Well, I've been mostly playing/testing the Builder.

Now I'm starting to work with the editor and test the missions in game. The mission is infantry only so it might be a good one to test this sort of things.

I don't see any problem with my squads in game right now.

The way you put it is also too generic.

Can you be more specific about what exactly you think is wrong. Give me an example of a point in a mission. What you ordered your squads to do? What they did and what you think they were supposed to do that did not happen. I'll try to reproduce it in my game ( current public version )and tell you what I see.

[iMPORTANT]

Actually none of the testers are allowed to comment on the patch for the time being. Since it is still a work in progress.

MadMatt has authorized me to talk about the Builder only.

[ December 31, 2007, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[Freeboy]

I had a tough time too, now I use a pause and give order mode, also note you can grab several at a time with a click drag and issue to that group only

[SlapHappy]

Good points. I'll elaborate some more.

Firstly, let me say that I was one of those people that griped about the lack of individual soldier control in CMSF (as you know I have both games).

Lest anyone think I am one of those "my opinion is correct at all costs" people, let me just say I WAS COMPLETELY WRONG. CMSF, with it's even larger troop inventory would be UNPLAYABLE without it's squad-level control only emphasis. I've even given kudos to BFC for how enjoyable the game is even when playing with only infantry elements. Unfortunately, TOW in it's current state, even with lower squad numbers seems, to be very near unplayable (for me anyway).

I also think it's important to point out that the problems are a combination of a few different factors.

Spotting: Infantry are just too exposed - Especially to armored vehicles - But even more especially to vehicles which are completely closed (tanks) and have limited sighting ports. How this works out in the game is that armor spots infantry targets well before they should be able to (even from behind), rendering AT weapons useless unless the target is assaulting INTO the "kill zone of the 'zook or faust man. Believe me, I have tested this again and again. Stalking a tank with even a group of AT weapons is a suicide mission. This 360 degree infantry danger radar detector needs to be removed from TOW armor......

Tactical AI issues: Sure we have a number of nice little buttons to choose from stand, kneel, prone, sit, beg . But, unfortunately, these only serve to increase the tendency to have to babysit a handful of individual soldiers. I've ordered a man to move quickly in an unspotted situation. Suddenly he comes under fire, does he drop or find cover? No, he continues to move as ordered until he reaches that destination or he dies, or both. My only real option is to concentrate most all of my attention on that active soldier or hope I get lucky. Self-preservation is not a high priority on the TOW battlefield. This is indicative to me of a game that was intended to be an RTS, not a tactical combat game. Indeed the earliest name for this title was WWII RTS, so there is good reason to believe that the designers had a different concept in mind for this game, at least originally. Then BFC got into the picture and brought the weapons model into the world of reality. Now our little RTS soldiers are out of their element, because they have no idea how to properly respond to a tank MGer which has spotted them and has opened fire from over 300 meters away. Despite our sympathy for their confusion, they end up just as dead. That's part of the reason why I was asking about the grass cover improvements promised because I think it might give them at least the opportunity to not be spotted quite so easily at such ranges.

Compounding this issue is the tendency for soldiers to change postures unordered when stealth is at a premium. Pvt. Johnson is prone with his bazooka and has maneuvered himself near the flank of a German light tank. Just another 15 meters or so and he will have a shot. But for some reason, despite all logic, he decides to shift to a kneeling posture which in TOW decreases the spotting range to him significantly. He's been spotted...the tank turret turns ominously. Exposed, he tries to make up the ground for a shot (poor Johnson doesn't know in TOW that doesn't ever work). MG burst. 'Taps' for poor Johnson. Now, one could argue that coming in from the flank like that, it shouldn't matter whether Johnson was prone, kneeling, or madly doing jumping jacks behind the tank...they simply wouldn't be in a position to see him very well. But in the world of TOW, the on-board infantry detectors work very well, thank you.

Keep in mind here, I've devoted almost all of my attention to getting a desired result by micromanaging maybe 2-3 soldiers and I still fail miserably because the enemy armored units are omniscient.

To be continued.....

[SlapHappy]

Squad? We don't need no stinking squad!: One thing I've noticed is the tendency for the AI to end up with their squad members scattered all over the map. The squad concept in modern warfare was not created or engendered on a lark. Without low-level leadership and direction, troops would simply go to ground and become ineffective...or worse find the nearest place to slink off to and hide. The SQUAD LEADER was the man responsible for making sure his small group of soldiers were in the fight and combat effective. But in TOW, individuals are all John Rambo. They happily stand their ground when completely isolated and out of commando control and initiative. And because of this moving a group of men around the TOW battlefront is like playing a game of sniper hunt. Especially annoying are those individual enemy AI's who end up squatting in a courtyard surrounded by fencing that, mysteriously, my soldiers can't simply jump over. So even if you've isolated one of the enemy Rambo's in one of these positions, you're forced to send in men piecemeal through a gate opening like you're making a social call. Apparently in TOW-land you're guy(s) are at a major disadvantage when making this visit. Bang. Guy one dead. Try again. Bang. Two dead. Lather, rinse, repeat.

More on the way.....

[SlapHappy]

The 4 f's: Find, Fix, Flank and Finish. 1)Find your enemy, 2)Fix him in place with suppressive fire allowing your maneuver element to 3)Flank him and 4) Finish him off.

Again, like the squad concept, these tactics were not pulled out of thin air. They were instituted because they were working solutions to real problems found on the WWII battleground.

What we need are tools to accomplish this in TOW without resorting to spending 98% of our time committed to this one individual engagement. I'm not suggesting a game where we push button A and then button B and then get some chess-like consistent result. What I am saying is that some kind of SOP's need to be programmed and accessible in the GUI to overcome tactical problems in the game. Then you have a real GAME SYSTEM and not just a bunch of 3-d models running around the battlefield aimlessly. The end results of your choice of tactics would then be modified by your troop quality, firepower, enemy quality, terrain and yes a little good or bad luck.

[Webwing]

Hm... I'm in a hurry now but will comment on this points.

Based on my experience with the current version of the game not the patch. I don't even have the latest version of the patch since I'm supposed to concentrate only on the Builder.

No problem for me to comment as a player based on my experience with the current public version of the game though.

Once the patch is released you'll be able to see for yourselves anyway, which is better than any second hand opinion.

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[winqvist]

I definetly agree with you Slaphappy about the infantry gameplay. What annoys me most is the unordered actions of all units. Especially with tanks, which are important for your mission.

Once you have find good, protected and as safe as possible positions for your tanks, one of the starts to:

1. Disobey halt, keep position, defend etc. orders and starts to advance madly over open gound and becoming target practice drone for enemy at-weapons.

2. Starts to turn over for no reason and to expose weaker side armor to the enemy.

We need AI fix as soon as possible.

[SlapHappy]

One of the problems is that targeting a unit that is not in ideal LOF overrides a HALT command. Therefore a unit which is ordered to halt AND target a specific unit is likely to go charging out of cover and get plastered.

There is no way to say "I want to target that unit with best opportunity to fire, but DO NOT reposition or otherwise move the vehicle (or infantry unit)".

It's just frustrating.......

[crazyman56]

I also agree with you SlapHappy because the game would be 99% as good as i want it to be if the AI of your units especially infrantry was improved because (as an example) i was a few days ago playing the first polish mission and i would have won the battle more easily if the AI was better. As when i tried to unhook a AT gun and disembark the troops on the truck and ordered them to man the AT gun they got out ran about 100 metres which i didnt notice so when a German tank came over the hill i found myself defenseless. Si if they could just do this i would be so much happier with TOW i dont care about anything else really. Mainly i want the AI to be improved is because and the moment it is NOT a fun game to play it is an annoying and fusrating game and if it was fun then i would be so much happier.

Crazy

[Flanker15]

Giving the tanks limited sighting is planned in the addon so not all is lost!

[laribe]

There is that word again, Add-on. It will not help people who want to play this version of the game.

[Gridley]

Unordered movements occur in reality, particularly green units (being lured out of position by probes, etc.). However, the degree to which units pursue contacts in the current (1.3) ToW is a very traditional RTS-like feature, more like Red Alert than a battlefront game. I really hope this behaviour becomes more realistic in the future...

[Webwing]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Spotting: Infantry are just too exposed .... This 360 degree infantry danger radar detector needs to be removed from TOW armor......

I guess 1C/BF have acknowledged this problem in a post some time ago. I guess this is not an easy fix though.

But to be honest I haven't even checked that since I'm working almost exclusively with infantry in my mission.

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Tactical AI issues: Sure we have a number of nice little buttons to choose from stand, kneel, prone, sit, beg . But, unfortunately, these only serve to increase the tendency to have to babysit a handful of individual soldiers.

It's kind of complicated to balance that. If you are going to work with squads then what is the point of having a game where you can control individual soldiers? So there is this issue that if you have too many soldiers on the battlefield you will have a lot to do!!!!

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

I've ordered a man to move quickly in an unspotted situation. Suddenly he comes under fire, does he drop or find cover? No, he continues to move as ordered until he reaches that destination or he dies, or both. My only real option is to concentrate most all of my attention on that active soldier or hope I get lucky. Self-preservation is not a high priority on the TOW battlefield.

There should be some sort of Hunt or Move to contact where the soldier would move but if he found a threat he would stop.

I agree and understand what you are saying but again is kind of a delicate balance. If the AI gets too clever then all you have to do is select all troops and tell them to advance and they will know when to stop, take cover, etc. Not much left for the player to do then. But yes the way some soldiers just march to their deaths is kind of weird. This varies depending on the skill but it is an issue for sure.

[ January 01, 2008, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[Webwing]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

One of the problems is that targeting a unit that is not in ideal LOF overrides a HALT command. Therefore a unit which is ordered to halt AND target a specific unit is likely to go charging out of cover and get plastered.

There is no way to say "I want to target that unit with best opportunity to fire, but DO NOT reposition or otherwise move the vehicle (or infantry unit)".

It's just frustrating.......

I have to agree with you that the game would benefit from some improvements in that area.

I don't think the game is not fun and I really have a good time playing it the way it is but definitely it would be great to see some improvements in those areas. But I don't think that is easy to accomplish.

I think the biggest challenge here to the devs is how much should the units obey you and how much they should disobey you!

If you tell a soldier to attack a target he will try to relocate to get a better view of the target. This is dangerous of course. Should he do it or not? Maybe you want him to take the risk. If he doesn't move then you will have to manually reposition him which will then fall into the babysitting dilemma. It's not as simple as it seems!

The defend command seems to work well to make them stay where you put them, for me. It all depends on the skill of the troops though.

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[ January 01, 2008, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[SlapHappy]

With the AI behavior the way it is now, I find the most effective (and silliest) way to play the game is to marshal all the infantry together into a pool and send out just a group of 3-5 troops to try and accomplish your goal (which is usually just kill all the Enemy AI's troops).

Once those guys get killed, round up a few more and repeat. I'm not even sure that's not what the designer's envisaged for the game based on the need to micromanage.

It's hard to say, I'm not sure how the designers figured you would play this game. Most of the emphasis seems to have been on the tank models. For any of those who remember back to the earliest Codemaster days, all the info releases were screenshots of the 3d models, specifically vehicles. You would not have known there was even any infantry in the game. Perhaps that was an omen right there.

[Webwing]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

With the AI behavior the way it is now, I find the most effective (and silliest) way to play the game is to marshal all the infantry together into a pool and send out just a group of 3-5 troops to try and accomplish your goal (which is usually just kill all the Enemy AI's troops).

Once those guys get killed, round up a few more and repeat. I'm not even sure that's not what the designer's envisaged for the game based on the need to micromanage.

It's hard to say, I'm not sure how the designers figured you would play this game. Most of the emphasis seems to have been on the tank models. For any of those who remember back to the earliest Codemaster days, all the info releases were screenshots of the 3d models, specifically vehicles. You would not have known there was even any infantry in the game. Perhaps that was an omen right there.

I guess soldiers AI is a lot more complex to code than vehicles.

In CM:SF is the same thing, there is almost no complain about tanks or Strykers but loads about soldier behavior.

It's just really hard to simulate how humans behave. Although you may argue that there is a human driving a tank, for instance, vehicles are a lot more limited and predictable in what they can do.

As for the screenshots its just that vehicles in 3D look almost real whereas humans... well you know what they look like.

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[ January 01, 2008, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Webwing:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SlapHappy:

One of the problems is that targeting a unit that is not in ideal LOF overrides a HALT command. Therefore a unit which is ordered to halt AND target a specific unit is likely to go charging out of cover and get plastered.

There is no way to say "I want to target that unit with best opportunity to fire, but DO NOT reposition or otherwise move the vehicle (or infantry unit)".

It's just frustrating.......

I have to agree with you that the game would benefit from some improvements in that area.

I don't think the game is not fun and I really have a good time playing it the way it is but definitely it would be great to see some improvements in those areas. But I don't think that is easy to accomplish.

I think the biggest challenge here to the devs is how much should the units obey you and how much they should disobey you!

If you tell a soldier to attack a target he will try to relocate to get a better view of the target. This is dangerous of course. Should he do it or not? Maybe you want him to take the risk. If he doesn't move then you will have to manually reposition him which will then fall into the babysitting dilemma. It's not as simple as it seems!

The defend command seems to work well to make them stay where you put them, for me. It all depends on the skill of the troops though.

--

-- </font>

[SlapHappy]

With all this talk about friendly AI problems and my own personal gripes, I was wondering how much could be accomplished using the scripting language to change objectionable behaviors in-game.

Better yet, I've been looking over the 'human.cpp' script file which seems to be the bulk of what makes up the infantry behavior system.

I really like how the infantry's default state in CMSF is PRONE. I'm going to see if I can't mod my game so that my soldiers go to this state automatically after a movement order.

[Freeboy]

ok, agree that the ai that controls infantry behavior is screwy..

the los issues should be worked out in patch xxx

at some future date.. this patch next patch.. everyone knows the stuff is screwy.. there is a patch now that affects this somewhat but how much we outsiders do not know.. also an ad on..

all these threads are not indicative of anything more than a lets make this a better game attitude.. chears

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Freeboy:

ok, agree that the ai that controls infantry behavior is screwy..

the los issues should be worked out in patch xxx

at some future date.. this patch next patch.. everyone knows the stuff is screwy.. there is a patch now that affects this somewhat but how much we outsiders do not know.. also an ad on..

all these threads are not indicative of anything more than a lets make this a better game attitude.. chears

While all of that is true, I prefer to be more pro-active about it. To each his own.

I've made some progress already.....

Cracking into the visibility.ini file I've discovered how each unit TYPE is programmed to spot another unit TYPE. There is a spotting formula which can be modified by altering a few numbers in the human tables, I can influence the spotting capabilities (for infantry) of and INDIVIDUAL UNIT based on the body position and movement type of infantry.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">[ArmoredCar]

BaseViewRange 1000

BaseObservableRange 300

BaseCloseRange 10

CanShowWithFOW False

KArtCommander 0.2

HumanLay 2.60 <-- increasing this number decreases spotting range for unit 0.02 <-- Don't know what this one is yet.

HumanCrawl 2.50 0.06

HumanKnee 2.4 0.18

HumanCrouched 1.88 0.20

HumanShortRush 1.75 0.20

HumanStay 1.25 0.60

HumanWalk 1.13 0.67

HumanRun 1.00 0.75

HumanTrench 2.00 0.18

Same for the below unit types...

Artillery 0.90 0.80

Car 1.33 1.00

ArmoredCar 1.33 1.00

Tank 1.50 0.50

SPG 1.40 0.60

Fortification 1.25

HMGun 1.14 1.07

Mortar 1.14 1.07

BattlePlane 0.00

Bomber 0.00

Fighter 0.00

Recon 0.00

Item 1.02

Observer 1.00

ForestRange 0 100 200 300

ForestK 0 0.2 0.4 1

ForestIgnoreDistance 25

IsBlockLOS True

UseVisibleForAim True

UseWeatherForAim True

AllySeenDist 300

T_DistMax 300

T_Offset 5

T_Scale 15 </pre>

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Freeboy:

ok, agree that the ai that controls infantry behavior is screwy..

the los issues should be worked out in patch xxx

at some future date.. this patch next patch.. everyone knows the stuff is screwy.. there is a patch now that affects this somewhat but how much we outsiders do not know.. also an ad on..

all these threads are not indicative of anything more than a lets make this a better game attitude.. chears

While all of that is true, I prefer to be more pro-active about it. To each his own.

I've made some progress already.....

Cracking into the visibility.ini file I've discovered how each unit TYPE is programmed to spot another unit TYPE. There is a spotting formula which can be modified by altering a few numbers in the human tables, I can influence the spotting capabilities (for infantry) of and INDIVIDUAL UNIT based on the body position and movement type of infantry.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">[ArmoredCar]

BaseViewRange 1000

BaseObservableRange 300

BaseCloseRange 10

CanShowWithFOW False

KArtCommander 0.2

HumanLay 2.60 <-- increasing this number decreases spotting range for unit 0.02 <-- Don't know what this one is yet.

HumanCrawl 2.50 0.06

HumanKnee 2.4 0.18

HumanCrouched 1.88 0.20

HumanShortRush 1.75 0.20

HumanStay 1.25 0.60

HumanWalk 1.13 0.67

HumanRun 1.00 0.75

HumanTrench 2.00 0.18

Same for the below unit types...

Artillery 0.90 0.80

Car 1.33 1.00

ArmoredCar 1.33 1.00

Tank 1.50 0.50

SPG 1.40 0.60

Fortification 1.25

HMGun 1.14 1.07

Mortar 1.14 1.07

BattlePlane 0.00

Bomber 0.00

Fighter 0.00

Recon 0.00

Item 1.02

Observer 1.00

ForestRange 0 100 200 300

ForestK 0 0.2 0.4 1

ForestIgnoreDistance 25

IsBlockLOS True

UseVisibleForAim True

UseWeatherForAim True

AllySeenDist 300

T_DistMax 300

T_Offset 5

T_Scale 15 </pre>

[Freeboy]

I would like to see the ai behavior of the infantry .. that is the code of behavior change so when they come under fire they change in a realistic way.. seekingshelter, dropping to the ground etc

[SlapHappy]

data/ai/human.cpp

[synchro]

it's a shame the tanks are so omnipotent. it ruined my interest in this game and reading this thread has just reminded me how annoying it was.

so much for combined arms.