Some thoughts on Russian game development

[Bloodstar44]

It's the matter of fact that Russian developers are catching up with western. What they lack is tradition, organization of game development from the very beginning, clearly definied what game needs to have when we talk about features, gameplay, mission balance, gameplay issues, bugs (!), and interface issues and on top camera control issues.

Now here comes trademark of Russian game development. While they excell at some things they really can ruin some things or make it substandard work at best. They are lazy, not very organized and sloppy.

That's why they need direction from western producers and some advice. Well, game is published by Battlefront.com so they will have to watch very seriously at Quality Control.

Now when I speak this I must also add that if they manage to iron those bugs and change some things and put few other things THAT CAN BE PUTT etc... then this game will be really great. I smell even classic. What cannot be putt due to time or money constraints ok but they need to organize themselves and do what can be done.

That's it.

[ April 22, 2007, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Bloodstar44 ]

[Bloodstar44]

I must add that many of the things would not now be a problem if they had a good design plan from the beginning. It's called design document, I think that even Chris Taylor have put a document - what it needs to have. I cannot imagine that they didn't have time to make it right so now we will be beta testers for 6 month so that they make up errors they made in the beginning of the process.

[Motomouse]

thanks for the stereotype posting

[TymK]

Originally posted by Bloodstar44:

It's the matter of fact that Russian developers are catching up with western. What they lack is tradition, organization of game development from the very beginning, clearly definied what game needs to have when we talk about features, gameplay, mission balance, gameplay issues, bugs (!), and interface issues and on top camera control issues.

Right, could you be any more patronizing? Besides, what glaring issues are there? Features? OK, please share some of your ideas with us. Gameplay? Lots of people find it addictive, and it’s really a matter of personal preference... not a thing to blame developers for. Mission balance? Well, war isn’t exactly fair, and ‘balanced’ often means unrealistic. I much prefer a tough challenge than an easy victory, and I don’t think I am than much of an exception among strategy fans.

And with respect to bugs... OK, there is the multicore issue which they are already working on, and a perfect workaround exists in the game options. There are some crashes for a small number of people, and 1C/BFC are very active and helpful in addressing them (plus they are open and transparent in that respect, which is a real exception in the industry nowadays).

Besides, I have seen games with huge budgets made by well-known developers which were much buggier... Hell, it took Valve months to address sound stuttering/memory management-related CTDs in HL2 (which were a real showstopper) -- now compare the resources involved.

Now here comes trademark of Russian game development. While they excell at some things they really can ruin some things or make it substandard work at best. They are lazy, not very organized and sloppy.

You forgot to add they are unwashed and smell of vodka ... Jeez, I haven't read such prejudiced BS in a long time on a game forum.

Hasn't it occurred to you that they usually work on non-mainstream, innovative products, and hence have incomparably smaller budgets than the well-established big players who feed you with the 11937th iteration of the same franchise every year? This game, too, while it is a big thing to us strategy fans, is a niche product when you look at the big picture, developed by a relatively small group of people whom you chose to insult here. It’s not a crowd-pleaser, and they may simply lack the resources to perform tests against each possible hardware/OS combination there is, or implement every feature anyone may desire.

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by Motomouse:

thanks for the stereotype posting

LOLZ

It won't happen again mighty Sultan

I cannot just praise the game, I must also criticize it a little bit.

OK maybe to try again Dunkirk scenario, if that lock up doesn't stop me.

[John Kelly]

I've seen a lot of Western developers who tanked at making PC games. The WWII plane sim they developed was rated extemely high. ToW has a ways to go yet, but I wouldn't condemn Russian development collectively. Let's focus on this game. There are still problems. Maybe some patches will help. John

[Bloodstar44]

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by John Kelly:

I've seen a lot of Western developers who tanked at making PC games. The WWII plane sim they developed was rated extemely high. ToW has a ways to go yet, but I wouldn't condemn Russian development collectively. Let's focus on this game. There are still problems. Maybe some patches will help. John

I agree with you John. OK I was a bit rude and apologized! What else. I am not against Russian or any other game development. Not at all! In fact I have higher opinion now then let's say 5 years before. Chezh game development is good, Mafia, Operation Flashpoint, Rumanian as well (Silent Hunter 3, 4)... etc. In fact in some respect Russians or East Europe have beaten USA - with dissolve of fabulous Dynamix (some developers from Dynamix went to MS to make FS) sim games are made mostly by Russians and Rumanians LOLZ.

I was talking about some small thing that well though so design document will not allow to slip by! And I was talking about organization. Nothing else. So that is not negative view but constructive criticism. And I sure know what I am talking.

Mario

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by Bloodstar44:

Right, could you be any more patronizing? Besides, what glaring issues are there? Features? OK, please share some of your ideas with us. Gameplay? Lots of people find it addictive, and it’s really a matter of personal preference... not a thing to blame developers for. Mission balance? Well, war isn’t exactly fair, and ‘balanced’ often means unrealistic. I much prefer a tough challenge than an easy victory, and I don’t think I am than much of an exception among strategy fans.

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Hey hold your horses... I have praised this game too much so I must balance a things somewhat

And don't take my post as too negative, I was speaking about Nival / Heroes 5 as well if you read between the lines which I am fan also.

Mostly I agree with you - I don't have big issues with the game. Maybe those things can be changed in few patches.

The bug with lock ups - I don't actually understand how it went by in the beta testing process. Sorry but then game is not properly tested. Then I will play ROTK XI until that crucial bug is solved.

Camera Control - you just had to watch oher games developments and see that this system now is not very good. Play Heroes 5 and you will se what I mean. Everything is there on the mouse, zooming, rotating, everything. It is a plain NONSENSE that it has to be this way.

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And with respect to bugs... OK, there is the multicore issue which they are already working on, and a perfect workaround exists in the game options. There are some crashes for a small number of people, and 1C/BFC are very active and helpful in addressing them (plus they are open and transparent in that respect, which is a real exception in the industry nowadays).

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Hello Dude, don't put me vs. Battlefront now as that is not true! I can criticize game that I paid and all that in good faith. I already stated that game is excellent and still think that.

EDIT: well, look into credits how much people worked on this game. I would say - a lot! BF.com was more supervisor and beta testing, majority of work is done by 1C.

And NEWSFLASH - 1C just opened a office in USA. They will do distribution in USA via Atari. Of course not for this games but they are entering BIG TIME to the worldwide market. So my post are making the point here - they will learn really painful way if they invest much money into games and if those games are not properly tested or some stupid things are there for player to "enjoy" and beta test. In cuttroath competition in game business that can be question on life and death. And THEN they will ask themselves why Battlefield 2 sells or TOTAL WAR.

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Besides, I have seen games with huge budgets made by well-known developers which were much buggier... Hell, it took Valve months to address sound stuttering/memory management-related CTDs in HL2 (which were a real showstopper) -- now compare the resources involved.

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OK, everything is well then. We will wait for a few patches and OK. I know that game industry is like that, Paradox also had those issues before with Hearts of Iron for example and only with few patches game become what is it now.

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You forgot to add they are unwashed and smell of vodka ... Jeez, I haven't read such prejudiced BS in a long time on a game forum.

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That is called exaggeration

You don't need to take everything so dead seriously. I am sorry for being rude, ok that is not nice.

--------

Hasn't it occurred to you that they usually work on non-mainstream, innovative products, and hence have incomparably smaller budgets than the well-established big players who feed you with the 11937th iteration of the same franchise every year? This game, too, while it is a big thing to us strategy fans, is a niche product when you look at the big picture, developed by a relatively small group of people whom you chose to insult here. It’s not a crowd-pleaser, and they may simply lack the resources to perform tests against each possible hardware/OS combination there is, or implement every feature anyone may desire.

[Avwriter]

What a pompous pack of racist nonesense! Your comments are quite simply disgusting, and your half-hearted appology is even worse. If you do not have the ability to consider the impact of your words befroe you utter them, then you have no business postting to a forum like this with a wide multinational readership.

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by Avwriter:

What a pompous pack of racist nonesense! Your comments are quite simply disgusting, and your half-hearted appology is even worse. If you do not have the ability to consider the impact of your words befroe you utter them, then you have no business postting to a forum like this with a wide multinational readership.

Are you gone mad? Racist nonsense? You are crazy I must admit.

I am not a racist so I would call you a fool and a moron.

I will not try to explain anything to you. I see that you have IQ 20 or even less.

I have a right on my opinion but that some fool call me a racist because of this well that is more than too much!

I didn't offended anyone esp. Russian developers - what I said is true.

Prime Example: Heroes 5:

Publisher Ubi Soft: Developer: Nival

Now as I am talking to you and you have IQ of 20 or less I will try to be more descriptive.

Nival had more than enough money to develop this game. Go to Celestial Heavens and see what some hardcore Heroes fans are writing hehe. Mine post is story for babies compared to them.

But, in the end Nival have pulled a miracle, game is good. What I cannot forgive is when you are aiming at perefection and every Heroes game is aiming at that is this: I cannot forgive sloppines and you must do your best to make even small things perfect because original design is perfect.

So listen once more, I am not racist at all. If you had any intelligence you will got that. I am just against sloppiness and laziness.

That of course is not just trademark of Russian development but they are entering game industry big time so they have to FIGHT TWICE as much to make GAMES RIGHT.

You got that you dickhead?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Originally posted by Bloodstar44:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Avwriter:

What a pompous pack of racist nonesense! Your comments are quite simply disgusting, and your half-hearted appology is even worse. If you do not have the ability to consider the impact of your words befroe you utter them, then you have no business postting to a forum like this with a wide multinational readership.

Are you gone mad? Racist nonsense? You are crazy I must admit.

I am not a racist so I would call you a fool and a moron.

I will not try to explain anything to you. I see that you have IQ 20 or even less.

I have a right on my opinion but that some fool call me a racist because of this well that is more than too much!

I didn't offended anyone esp. Russian developers - what I said is true.

Prime Example: Heroes 5:

Publisher Ubi Soft: Developer: Nival

Now as I am talking to you and you have IQ of 20 or less I will try to be more descriptive.

Nival had more than enough money to develop this game. Go to Celestial Heavens and see what some hardcore Heroes fans are writing hehe. Mine post is story for babies compared to them.

But, in the end Nival have pulled a miracle, game is good. What I cannot forgive is when you are aiming at perefection and every Heroes game is aiming at that is this: I cannot forgive sloppines and you must do your best to make even small things perfect because original design is perfect.

So listen once more, I am not racist at all. If you had any intelligence you will got that. I am just against sloppiness and laziness.

That of course is not just trademark of Russian development but they are entering game industry big time so they have to FIGHT TWICE as much to make GAMES RIGHT.

You got that you dickhead? </font>

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by Avwriter:

What a pompous pack of racist nonesense! Your comments are quite simply disgusting, and your half-hearted appology is even worse. If you do not have the ability to consider the impact of your words befroe you utter them, then you have no business postting to a forum like this with a wide multinational readership.

BTW let me be straight with you. Even if I get banned I will not just crush my principles.

Now, you have offended me very much by calling me a racist. That is simple not true so moderators as well take a notice.

I can comment on game development in ANY country and I can see some trends. That doesn't makes me a racist.

I have seen dozen of Russian games. And reviewed many of them. Only recently game development there have started to catch up. And I applaud that.

How can I be a racist when one of the most antipicated game this year called Rig'n'Roll is game that I will buy first day on release. Damn it, it's a Russian made game! This as well.

So you cannot just offend me and then pretend that nothing happened!

I was just stating that many Russian made game had that something in there was not made right. Do you see that in Battlefields 2 or MTW 2? No.

So I have given them best possible advice in the world how to beat western developers at their own game and you call me racist?

That is too much.

And on top of that I have simpathy of Russian game development as it is YOUNGER than in the west. That's why they need to work harder and better.

But you cannot call me racist as I have many friends even in Russia. For example Akella. I know personally Dmitry Arkhipov. Akella is one example of better Russian game dev. company. NSK Soft labs as well.

So please think what you post. And think about the rights of speech and what is responsibility of spoken word. I stand by my words.

[Bloodstar44]

Careful Mario. This place isn't like the Matrix forums. The management bans folks who misbehave.

PoE [/QB]

[MajorPrivate]

[TymK]

Originally posted by Bloodstar44:

Hey hold your horses... I have praised this game too much so I must balance a things somewhat

Then go ahead, provide some concrete, justified criticism instead of making ridiculous, prejudiced comments.

The bug with lock ups - I don't actually understand how it went by in the beta testing process. Sorry but then game is not properly tested. Then I will play ROTK XI until that crucial bug is solved.

This is a point on which I might have just agreed with you if you had bothered to make it in your original post. Still, it's actually not that simple. I haven't encountered the issue, just like many other people. Now don't get me wrong, I hate it when people say "I don't have this issue so it's a problem on your end". I have had my fair share of such issues with other games where the majority kept saying they didn't exist. Still, this just shows you it is possible to miss it as it does not occur on many configurations. So, in this case, it IS the matter of resources involved (the more testers, the more chance to catch it).

Camera Control - you just had to watch oher games developments and see that this system now is not very good. Play Heroes 5 and you will se what I mean. Everything is there on the mouse, zooming, rotating, everything. It is a plain NONSENSE that it has to be this way.

That's one thing I did not refer to in my previous post because I do agree. What this has to do with the developers being Russian, however, I have no idea. Haven't you seen recent 'Western' games with clunky interfaces?

I can criticize game that I paid and all that in good faith. I already stated that game is excellent and still think that.

Great, it's just that insulting people is hardly valid criticism.

That is called exaggeration

You don't need to take everything so dead seriously. I am sorry for being rude, ok that is not nice.

I take stuff as it is... You made no attempt to convey it as something to be taken with an inch of salt.

Yes you will teach me about game industry. I was game journalist for many years and I know this industry better than you! Jesus Christ!

And here comes this attitude again . If you were, then you should have known better than to make such half-assed comments. Besides, knowing the industry so well, you should be aware that games with issues which, I agree, should have been ironed out before release are becoming more of a rule than an exception thoroughout the industry. And this certainly has nothing to do with developers being of any particular nationality...

And you completely missed a point here.

Point is that GAME DESIGNERS, BETA TESTERS, PRODUCERS have a duty to notice some things well before game is released to public. So small budget is not ALWAYS excuse.

So please chill out, a little criticism will not kill anyone or it will?

Then formulate valid criticism instead of racist crap... Nobody would have had any issues with your post if it were reasonable and contained substantiated points.

[MajorPrivate]

PT Barnum was right

[Bloodstar44]

Then formulate valid criticism instead of racist crap... Nobody would have had any issues with your post if it were reasonable and contained substantiated points.

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Can we get serious. First that is not racist crap. My English do lack words but some behaviour then must be explained with better English word.

And I don't want to argue.

Another thing - every game strives to perfection. You will see that those who don't fail. And I know that even games that feels perfect can have some small things that are not! Yes, I know that.

BUT! If some parts were made perfect than I don't see a point in not striving to make those small easy to change things also perfect. You know trying is also not achieving and I will credit at least those who tried.

I am not troublemaker here so I think that this discussion maybe needs to come to an end.

Certanly my words are a little bit edgy and maybe offensive but that is the passion of a gamer, it not be judged to harsh.

And please stop it with calling me a racist that is furthest from the truth. I used the word lazyness and sloppiness and I am labeled as racist. Well done. See I didn't say that Russians are lazy as per se. That is what you imagined in your mind. So that is telling more about you than about me.

I was describing atrend I have seen in Russian made games. That's all. Of course there are exception.

It's quite hypocritical what you are trying to put on my soul. Because in my country I am known as anti nazi, anti nationalists, anti communist , and globally cosmopolitan. So that is not nice that you on the forum label me as racist just because I used some not so appropriate words.

Instead please enlighten me what English words to use for that Heroes 5 thing that I described.

Game is really great but they could have followed original vision and put those small things to make it perfect.

So what is the word for this?

Mario

[Moon]

Bloodstar, we don't ban people for speaking their mind. We do ban for excessive use of that d* word, or various f* or a* words. I think that PoE meant that, and if he did, then he was right.

However, we also do not ban without giving plenty of advance warning, except in extreme cases, and this one here is not.

Before we go about all the banning business, however, I'm going to simply lock this thread before it heats up more.

Martin