gatsby Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Since I sat refreshing this forum for the better part of a day and evening I had occasion to actually read most of the posts …excuse me for the length of the post… There has been an interesting meta discussion going on around here...A bunch of people were upset that the pre-ordered promise was delayed and is now actually defunct...They were being called whiners and complainers by a group who profess to be more understanding and mature than the whiners and complainers... Also anybody who had a problem with various aspects of the demo were told to be quiet and have some patience and that they didn’t know anything about anything…Of course those very same problems are being complained about by others now that the game has been released. In fact I have noticed a number of the same individuals who were castigating others for “whining” are now themselves doing the same “whining” but of course claiming that they are trying to be supportive and helpful… Both groups of course have someone to blame...the whiners have the company ...the mature understanding folk can feel superior to the whiners and blame them for their immature behavior... This is of course nothing new in the continuing development between public and private concerns in the modern era...the consumer and the corporation... The corporation demands that the consumer pay money for a product no matter how frivolous and no matter how important(from games to health care)...if the individual reneges on his promise to pay then he is liable for sanctions including criminal ones...and will not get the product or the service. If the corporation reneges on their promise regarding a service or product then they are not liable to any criminal liability but can be sanctioned for pecuniary damages...even though it is rare...The corporation under US law is treated as an individual under the 14th amendment but is also considered to have a limited liability...BTW the 14th amendment was set up in order to ensure that former slaves would have rights under the constitution...out of the first 100 cases brought to the supreme court ..two had to do with rights of former slaves...98 were brought by corporations in order that they have all the rights of individuals but none of the liability... What is interesting however to me here and is a change in the discourse.. is that the consumers have chosen sides...forgetting that there is a business relationship between them and the corporation.. they have decided that the whiners are not being good consumers ...it reminds me a bit of the kids in class who used to argue the teacher's position... The bottom line is that the company screwed up for whatever reasons... somebody who points that out or complains about it or wants to be compensated for a broken promise is not a lesser individual who somehow cannot cope with his craven wants...the whole consumer society relies on craven wants to survive... Empathy is not a tool to understand behavior of an institution which solely exists to make profit...If you want an empathy exercise flip it around...I promise to pay the company 20 bucks lets say.. and I don't...I have good reasons for it..disaster.. tragedy...illness etc...the company will not care why I haven't paid them...they will want their money or they will take action...not a whole lot of understanding when it comes to the consumer...but a company will be the first to ask for understanding because they know that people, unlike institutions will most of the time give one another a break…This company here.. Battlefront …has consistently played the “the little guy” card…whenever there is a problem.. saying in essence.. look you guys are lucky we are even making these games…if we weren’t around you would be stuck with mindless graphics hungry not very realistic games…we are “little guys” so give us a break.. a little slack.. of course we don’t charge little guys prices and of course.. the nature of the market is such that if there is a demand somebody will fill it.. so if we weren’t around somebody else would be.. but still go easy… Its a small trivial thing.. a game...in the big picture...but most things are.. meaning is given.. it is not intrinsic...the public "commons" has narrowed considerably is the last twenty years...almost to nothing...this last century was the first time that the "public" had got their hands on the levers of power and had a bigger chunk of the total wealth circulating around...this happened because of the war this game modeled and another big one that proceeded it and the need for large conscript armies and the full backing of the citizens on the home front.. for this governments and private interests started sharing a little of the wealth… When the entire economic system (depression) collapsed the firewall that protects the private against the public went with it and so between two world wars and the depression…the public got a little bit more access to power than they had ever had...but slowly over the last 20 to 25 years or so.. private concerns have been clawing back the power that was given away by necessity to the disenfranchised…the loss of union power….the disparagement of public institutions, the growth of mega corporations, the sense that somehow public government is inefficient and corrupt as compared to private institutions(even though such private corruption tales such as Enron, the Savings and Loan scandal etc fill the news), and now we have arrived here… One group of consumers decides another is bad… whiners.. complainers.. one group takes it upon themselves to defend an institution which is devoted to profit…and not to the concerns pf individuals unless they happen to coincide… This is what has been happening to the society at large…In the 100 years or so in the US especially…the exigencies of private for profit business had to be mollified by the “public”. Government stepped in realizing that private interests rarely intersect with public ones. Business is supposed to make profit and if it doesn’t the shareholders and the company will complain and the company will not survive.. so it is not in its best interests to police itself unless it has a positive affect on its bottom line… However the public has been fragmented and has lost its traditional role…Instead it has allowed itself to be marginalized because some of its members have taken on the role of apologists for institutions and have turned on their fellows believing that the “whiners” are not as good citizens as they are because they don’t complain… The “market” is the best process we have found to allocate resources. But it has never been the central tenet of any society(including by the way the Phoenicians who were a mercantile society bar none)..it certainly has not been the “gauze” to view the society’s values… You guys probably are all amateur historians…so you should read or reread Thucydides’s History of the Peloponnesian War … Not only is Athens a very good parallel (better than Rome) to the present day United States…(i.e. win good war against Imperial bad guys the Persians(read nazis or Soviets) and then think that any war you fight by definition after that must be good.. and then get bogged down in a ridiculous hegemonic war against Syracuse which scares everybody else in the world)...but Thucydides’s spends a great deal of time taking to task the citizens of Athens for abrogating their responsibilities as citizens and becoming interested in only money and as he put it their own private games…forgetting that the society has values beyond the parochial…forgetting the qualities that bind us…and being unable to see over the crest of the hill of our own selfish interests… Thanks for your indulgence.. I realize it’s a tad long… John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avwriter Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I sincecerly mean no disrespect, as I take none from your own comments. However, step back and read what you just wrote, John. Are you not yourself doing the same thing you criticise the "mature understanding folk" for doing? I.e. sitting back and passing judgement on others with an attitude of superiority? At the end of the day, both sides of the issue you are addressing come down to human nature: the way our brains work, and the way in which we are genetically programmed to interact. It is very easy to say that history repeats itself, and that we should learn from our mistakes. However, the fact that history does repeat itself so often implies that we cannot, in fact, change our nature to any serious degree. I am not suggesting that we give up on improving ourselves, but rather that it is unrealistic to expect people to stop acting like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltung Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 man, this thread is a good cure for insomnia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 Yes one of the problems in any analysis is that the prejudices, assumptions, world view, etc creeps in and if ir is not copped to..there is a problem in the analysis...that was in essence the post modernists downfall..so your point is well taken...however I wasn't feeling superior so it is a fault of my communication skills and I apologize for any hint of that..I actually p fall on all sides of the issue..as i get older this seems to happen more.. I do understand the company's position, the people who were sick of the complaining and the people who were complaining.. in the last 48 hours I have felt all of the above... What I was struck by though was how this forum exemplifies some of the larger issues confronting us especially this resurgence of private power and a kind of misplaced trust in institutions of any kind..and the human desire to be part of a group to find a them for us to identify ourselves against... I do not think history repeats itself at all.. Context always changes...and history is after ll interpretation and that interpretation is more reflective of the person and time that the historian is writing from than of the time they are writing about.. my pal Thucididyes again... there are parallels that can be cherry picked...but of course where you put the frame says more about you than what you are framing... and I don't agree that we don't learn from history...we don't have human sacrifices..we don't believe that we have seven orifices because there are seven planets...we don't have organized slavery...and on and on...human nature is mutable..depending on the environment..as Darwin said all evolution is a local adaptation to a local environment.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Point being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellysheroes Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Very good post John. I concur. Though I found a way to beat the system of the market and the man a long time ago. It's called "don't buy it when it releases". It's also called wait till it's bargain bin priced or someone sells it used. I've beaten the man an I've beaten the system. I found it all too common for the man and the system to abuse it's position and release faulty buggy software out of the box as common practice and not as an oops. Many even fully admit to releasing unfinished products nowadays. It's become some psychological brainwashing of the masses to accept this practice. But, if you can unbrainwash yourself from accepting this bs then you will win out in all catagories. When you do finally buy the game you will not only have saved yourself money, but, anquish and you will get a finshed and complete product when the last patch goes down. Oh it might be a year later or so, but, so what? You waited this long on the product,what's another few months or a year? I'm now in a mode of buying games 1 or 2 years past and it's great for my pocket book and I haven't been anquished by a purchase in years buying software this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Nicely written and thoughtful but I disagree with many of your points. Corporations are often understanding when bills aren't paid on time, there is usually a grace period, and even after that the penalties are not too stiff. This is especially true of "vital" products such as rent, utilities, etc. You seem to be trying to equate being a few days late in delivering a product to a consumer not paying a bill at all, it's not the same. What happened with the release is more akin to being a few days late on a payment. Further, consumers do have protection in the form of bankruptcy laws. All corporations lose some money from non-payment by consumers. Since you mentioned healthcare, let me remind you that in the average medical practice fully 10-20% of bills are never paid (and we're obligated by law to continue to treat the patient, within certain limits. This is fair and just.) Also, hospitals and doctors commonly negotiate no-interest payment plans for those that are financially disadvantaged. Finally, you like so many others seem not to realize that the line between public and corporate is very blurry these days. fully 60% of American families own some stock, usually as part of a retirement plan. Thus the stockholders you referenced are actually, to a large extent, the public. True the average American doesn't own nearly as much stock as a millionaire, but more and more our retirements are financed by the returns on stocks and bonds, especially with the demise of the pension. My child's college education fund is fully 1/3 interest earned, mostly on stocks i.e. corporate profits. Thus these profits will help pay for his education. Not to mention all the "public" that actually work for the corporations in question. Bottom line is that they did deliver the product, for a fair price, albeit late. Further, the refund policy is explained and agreed to by the consumer. There exists no extrinsic "right" to a product (with the possible exception of healthcare but that is another story.) You either buy it or you don't based on the price and conditions of sale. In fact, much of the mentality attributed to corporations is exactly the same as that demonstrated by people who seem to believe they have a right to a certain product (a game no less) and that they, not the people who worked for years of their life to make it, should dictate the terms of its receipt. Kellysheroes, I do the same thing, usually. Imagine if everyone did that, then companies would actually be forced to release good, non-buggy stuff so people would buy it right away. It's the enthusiastic who rush to buy a hot new game right away that allow companies to get away with this. Having said that, I did pre-order just because I've been a long time fan of BFC and well quite frankly the money's not that big a deal. But believe it or not I've not even installed the game yet! I did download it. I'll probably wait for the first patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltung Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 ah, where would we be without a nice tin-foil-hat screed against "the man" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 He's probably young, one day he'll BE "the man!" or at least buy his stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Ah yes....as the saying goes "youth is wasted on the young" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsmurphy Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I just wanted to throw in s "quick" comment (any comment after that post will appear quick). Basically the parts where Gat was talking about the "little guy" syndrome/excuse is kinda why this game makes me cranky. Maybe I am strange, but a good portion of my decision to put money into something comes from trust. In a situation like this, I am seeing a lot of users (myself included) starting to discover problems with this game that could result in it having a very short lifespan. For me, when I ask questions regarding all the problems I see, if the company responds with attitude, or plays the, "We're just little guys" card, then my trust factor starts to slide. What does it matter if I trust them or not you ask? Well, I want to trust the company is going to continue to stand by, and fix the product. If they insist on charging the same price as the other companies, then I want to know they are going to support it at least as well as some of them do. I personally don't think this game should cost what is does considering the fact that it is actually a really old game, full of a lot of problems. However, if they insist on charging that much, I simply want to know that somewhere along the line they, or someone will fix it. With that said, I understand the need for some people around here to defend this game regardless. The company is an obvious one, but there are a lot of people here who have spent a lot of time on these forums and as such, it can feel like a big let down when you start to think possibly your time has been wasted. And then there are the people who have pre-ordered. It's understandable that anyone with a bad thing to say can put that feeling deep down in their stomach where they don't even want to see bad things on a game they have already spent money on. I personally would like the Dev's to stop trying to be something they are not. Stop puffing up their chests and pretending they are larger than life, but playing that "We're only 7 people" card every time something is brought up that can't be explained. Instead of bashing people who are making negative comments towards the game, maybe try embracing the ideas, making note, and doing what is needed to make this game the best it can be. Perhaps that means releasing source code to modders (it's not like industry secrets are going out) and let them run with it. Embrace peoples enthusiasm to help out and set it up in a way that you can regulate it and make sure it's in the best interest of the game. With that said, I don't really trust this company much. They are good at responding to posts on this forum, but there have been little red flags for me that have come up like simply omitting problems (such as the british voices missing) and jsut playing damage control AFTER people have spent thier money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I am honestly too busy and tired to actually read through this post but i am sure of one thing, it is not in of itself directly related to any element of the game as a whole. As such it is off topic and am closing it down. Call it abuse of power, call it lack of sleep on my part, call it what you want, but I am locking this thread at last up as of right now. We are not saying you cant have a discenting opinion of this game, thats fine, we just ask that you try and keep ON TOPIC. When you start talking about business motivations (and again not saying anyone did) or talking about the state of the FORUM at large or about specific people and how they post, then you have gotten off the topic of the game and that is NOT permitted. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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