Introductions, Questions, and Suggestions

[crazylegsmurphy]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post on these forums, and it’s going to be a doozy!

I first heard about this game over at the Company of Heroes forum where another member,, who was looking for a game with more realism, suggested that we take a look at this game.

Well, after looking through pretty much every page on the main site I must say that I am quite intrigued by this game so far. I am almost 100% convinced I am going to give this game a try, but there were a few nagging questions I wasn’t able to find the answers too…and maybe you guys could help.

After watching some of the game play videos I couldn’t help but notice that in my opinion, while most of the graphics look quite good, some of the animation seemed quite stiff. For example, there is one video where what looks to be German troops are running from a tank. One of the troops must cross a trench and to my surprise he just popped down inside and popped right back up on the other and kept running.

It struck me as a little odd that a game with so much realism would have troops behave so unrealistically in the sense that there seemed to be little in the way of animation that would suggest it actually took effort to get out of a 8 foot trench.

Secondly, I noticed that the animation for the explosions seemed to be the same 2D animation every time. There was one instance where a bombing run hit the ground, and the same, stark black dirt cloud went up every time.

As well, while watching the video’s I also noticed that the animation looked quite “choppy”. It’s especially noticeable to me when the troops are running as they seem to stutter along the ground.

These three examples bring me to my first question. Have some of the animation/graphics been updated for the final release?

As an owner of an Nvidia 8800 GTS card, and Windows Vista I am wondering if this game has any plans to take advantage of the DirectX 10 capabilities of this new hardware and software. If not, what are the current capabilities of the game to take advantage of higher end video cards?

I also have a quick list of questions I am wondering about after viewing the screens.

- Is the player able to turn off/change what looks to be default graphic that floats above the heads of the units? Personally, this is really the ugliest graphic I have seen in the game so far, and while I realize it probably serves its function, I already find them to be quite a distraction.

In Company of Heroes (which offers a similar icon) the icon is very subtle while still getting the unit information and health across. I have actually played a lot of that game, and I can tell you that I have never found it to be a distraction.

In ToW however, it seems that the big circular graphic would become quite annoying as the units became bunched up. Of course, as a graphic artist by trade, this is more of a visual nitpick than anything else, I just feel that keeping the graphic more subtle will keep it from taking away from the graphics of the game.

Here is an example of what I mean, on the left, the visual style of the troops is overshadowed by these huge green “balloons” overlapping.

http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots2/images/ww2%202007-02-03%2015-51-54-89.jpg

- Is there a default camera view? What I mean is that in Company of Heroes you also have the ability to free float the camera around, but I have found that the default view is what allows me to regain my bearings and figure out where I am.

- Does this game support widescreen resolutions? In all the screenshots I have seen, it appears that they are all 4:3 ratio. I have a 24” widescreen and I am wondering if this game will support high resolutions at widescreen?

And finally, I have decided to add in my suggestions. I’m not sure if they are welcome or not, but perhaps a fresh pair of trained eyes might help.

The only real suggestions I have are graphical ones. While the game looks good, there are a few things I noticed that stand out to me as distracting.

I already mentioned the “green balloons” above the units, but I really think that these would work much better if they were toned down, or slightly reworked. Perhaps getting rid of the circle altogether and just using the “stroke” around the unit icon to portray the faction would help.

Tank tracks – Something just gets to me about the tracks left behind from the Armour. I think that all it would take is to knock back the stark blackness of the tracks to something a little more subtle. It also seemed that the tracks behave like those old RTS games where they disappear, a short while behind the tank. I remember this sort of thing in the old Nintendo games and it really comes across more as an animation, than a real world consequence to a tank moving.

Perhaps it would work better if possible to have the tracks start out more subtle, and then fade slowly over time and distance. This would help the other players to follow tank tracks if needed, and give a nice overall look of a war torn battlefield.

Menus – No offence, but the menus really look dated to me. If it weren’t for the fancy new 3D graphics in the upper portion of the screen I would swear this game was from the mid 1990’s. While it totally looks functional, it really doesn’t seem to fit with the game style and instead of evoking a WWII feeling, it comes across lacking personality.

Not only that, but there are certain things that just look unfinished to me personally, such as various graphics competing for space, images hugging the sides of the boxes, and in some cases (such as the unit overview screens) the backgrounds are competing with the menus.

Here is an example; you can see how where in the Coaxial and AP boxes the graphics are butting up against the edges of the box, this really creates a cluttered and unfinished look to me.

ttp://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots2/images/ww2%202007-02-03%2015-18-30-62.jpg

And finally, the only other little nitpick I have is the graphic for the “directional arrow” I see in many of the screens. To me, this arrow doesn’t really help to convey any sense of direction in the 3D environment. Aside from it being slightly ugly in design, because it kind of sits at this funny angle it doesn’t really follow the lay of the land well. As you can see in the following pictures, the arrow just seems to point in this awkward direction no matter where it’s pointing.

http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots2/images/ww2%202007-02-03%2018-27-05-92.jpg

http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots2/images/ww2%202007-02-03%2015-57-54-94.jpg

As you can see, the head of the arrow just kind of stays at that strange angle, and no matter where it’s pointing, it always looks like it’s pointing up to the top of the screen. There is nothing in that arrow that conveys a sense of depth or direction.

The most obvious fix would be to have the arrow follow the contour of the land to the target with a nice semi-transparent graphic that would give the player the sense of 3D space the units must encounter to get to, or hit the target. If that isn’t possible, the arrow should at least stay on the same plane as the 3D world so it appears to be part of it.

The following is a quick example of the arrow, and the unit type that could be done to make them a little nicer. Obviously I only spent about 3 minutes on each, but you get the idea.

http://www.mmmyeah.com/fedora/tow.jpg

With that, I think this game is looking to be one of the coolest RTS’ this year and I am really looking forward to giving it a try. Please don’t take my suggestions as me bashing the game, I think it looks really cool, I just felt that a little constructive criticism might help.

Patiently awaiting,

Jeff

[Moon]

crazy wins the post for the longest first post ever

Will need some time to write up an answer...

Martin

[Spartan]

Moon,

Can you finish the game and then write the reply:)

Mike

[crazylegsmurphy]

YAY! I win! You hear that suckers!

[theBrit]

Great post!!!

Firstly I hated Company of Hero's. Thank god it was a freebie for me. Talk about click fest, a RTS in its ugliest sense of the word!!!!

Im hoping that TOW is a far more cultured wargame. One where RL tactic's can be employed as opposed to CoH's arms race. Give me gameplay over pretty effects anyday.

But as a fellow Graphic Artist I too hope that the icons are toggled (function key or tabed), they do detract from the battlefield view and immersion of the combat somewhat. As for the other suggestions, sadly with only a month to go before release, its too late...

[Moon]

I first heard about this game over at the Company of Heroes forum where another member,, who was looking for a game with more realism, suggested that we take a look at this game.

That was no doubt a very good suggestion

These three examples bring me to my first question. Have some of the animation/graphics been updated for the final release?

Some of what you're describing is no doubt a problem with the video capturing software more than with the game. Or with older videos. I am not sure which ones you refer to, but most of those that are on our website have been taken with non-professional capturing software on a simple desktop computer and lack the kind of polish you'll see from the bigger publishers. We invest in the game, not the glitz

As an owner of an Nvidia 8800 GTS card, and Windows Vista I am wondering if this game has any plans to take advantage of the DirectX 10 capabilities of this new hardware and software. If not, what are the current capabilities of the game to take advantage of higher end video cards?

The game does not use DX10 but is compatible with Vista. I am not really qualified to give more details. I'll ask Matt or Rune to chime in here, they are the hardware gurus. I've never bought a video card in my life.

- Is the player able to turn off/change what looks to be default graphic that floats above the heads of the units?

Yes, you can toggle this off... like most of the "game helper" graphics and icons. There are also a couple of ways to display the GUI, minimized and full. The interface design, from a functionality point of view, is really excellent in TOW (I say this as a fellow developer with a bow towards 1C)

- Is there a default camera view? What I mean is that in Company of Heroes you also have the ability to free float the camera around, but I have found that the default view is what allows me to regain my bearings and figure out where I am.

Yes, whenever you quick-jump to a unit, the camera will take a pre-defined spot.

One note though... it might be a mistake to compare all game features to CoH. Especially without the ability to (yet) see a demo of TOW to compare. I only played the CoH demo briefly (too arcadey for my taste) and actually forgot how the camera controls went, but what might be a problem in CoH could have been solved entirely different in TOW. You'll have to wait and check out the demo (we're planning to release it around the same time as the full version will be shipping).

- Does this game support widescreen resolutions? In all the screenshots I have seen, it appears that they are all 4:3 ratio. I have a 24” widescreen and I am wondering if this game will support high resolutions at widescreen?

I was playing the game on my widescreen laptop without problems.

And finally, I have decided to add in my suggestions. I’m not sure if they are welcome or not, but perhaps a fresh pair of trained eyes might help.

We dig suggestions Especially if somebody takes the time to write a novel full of them

I already mentioned the “green balloons” above the units, but I really think that these would work much better if they were toned down, or slightly reworked. Perhaps getting rid of the circle altogether and just using the “stroke” around the unit icon to portray the faction would help.

Your comment highlights that you're used to another game. In TOW, you will have to get used to MUCH bigger maps. Action will take place at 500m, even 1000m and more. You will be spending some time in extremely zoomed-out view to get an idea of the action, and believe me, the icons help a great deal to quickly issue orders and jump to the action. Just like you say that the CoH icons never bothered you while playing, it's all a matter of the right tools for the right game.

Perhaps it would work better if possible to have the tracks start out more subtle, and then fade slowly over time and distance. This would help the other players to follow tank tracks if needed, and give a nice overall look of a war torn battlefield.

This is precisely what happens, but in order to conserve hardware power, the tracks do fade over distance AND time. IIRC you can adjust the time they are visible (and distance) in the configuration application.

Menus – No offence, but the menus really look dated to me. If it weren’t for the fancy new 3D graphics in the upper portion of the screen I would swear this game was from the mid 1990’s. While it totally looks functional, it really doesn’t seem to fit with the game style and instead of evoking a WWII feeling, it comes across lacking personality.

No offence taken, but this will have to remain your personal opinion about them

Here is an example; you can see how where in the Coaxial and AP boxes the graphics are butting up against the edges of the box, this really creates a cluttered and unfinished look to me.

Actually that might be because you ARE looking at beta screens

And finally, the only other little nitpick I have is the graphic for the “directional arrow” I see in many of the screens. To me, this arrow doesn’t really help to convey any sense of direction in the 3D environment. Aside from it being slightly ugly in design, because it kind of sits at this funny angle it doesn’t really follow the lay of the land well. As you can see in the following pictures, the arrow just seems to point in this awkward direction no matter where it’s pointing.

You're right, it's definitely ugly, but we're not going to be able to change this before release anymore. While you only needed 3 minutes to make a Photoshop mockup, adding the code necessary to support this is not a trivial thing.

Part of your impression however might be due to the fact that you're basing it on static screenshots. The perception is somewhat different while moving around the 3D map space. As a play aid for the player it definitely does its job well as is, and for those who think it's ugly, you can also turn it off.

With that, I think this game is looking to be one of the coolest RTS’ this year and I am really looking forward to giving it a try. Please don’t take my suggestions as me bashing the game, I think it looks really cool, I just felt that a little constructive criticism might help.

Thank you for it. I wish everybody's first post to a forum would be like this. You will find that we listen well to constructive criticism at Battlefront.

Martin

[ March 08, 2007, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Moon ]

[rune]

Since development began years ago, before Vista and DX10, the short answer is no, it will not support the shader in dx10, which is only available in Vista. Remember, this is based a modified IL2 engine.

Rune