Wish List!

[M Hofbauer]

*g*

you still dont get it do you?

n.b.: no name calling, unless you started it: that finger points back at yourself.

[ August 29, 2006, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

Well well well...you still dont learn

pull up a chair and listen

hofbauer quotes:

n.b.: no name calling, unless you started it: that finger points back at yourself.

I believe it was you who was first to be insulting should i remind you ?

No that would be to easy...you are to easy champ, you really need to look at the past conversation.

what the hell you gotta learn sometime.

hofbauer quotes:

and I believe you should be hit on the head repeatedly with a Nerf ball that has your statement above scribbled onto it.

That was your reply to my first post on the subject.

also this quote:

Sammy_Beavis_Jnr,

ok ill give you a break you might be 12yrs old.

Im still looking for an explaination then rather

Hofbauer quotes:

you still dont get it do you?

and the past replys werent much better.

So before you dismiss ideas and be insulting about it please back it up..I believe thats what the moderators wanted. People who can back up there arguments. They mentioned those types of people are `mental midgets'.

Mr Kohler well you need to consider who is the upstart. Please read post before passing judgement on me. Though I would say you two will stick together that is obvious.

----------------------

"The heavy casualties inflicted on the enemy have greatly affected his morale and will prove to be a turning point in the battle of the Atlantic."

Admiral Sir Max Horton - May 1943 - Commander of the Western Approache

[ComradeP]

Sammy_Beavis_Jnr:

When Hofbauer "calls you names" (your statement, not mine) you don't have to respond at all, you can just continue with more serious things if you are offended.

Your comment concerning the usage of radio's indeed lacks some historical understanding and probably won't be included in the game as Forward Observers are not included.

The Americans used lots of radio's, but every other country that is included in this release did not. The advantage a radio would give is being able to communicate, but there's no need to communicate in game as you are the "god" that can see the entire battlefield.

Radio's are great for tactical wargames, but those wargames would have to include Forward Observers.

There's also no delay for spreading orders for tanks that are not equipped with radio's, as every tanks automatically knows what to do (unrealistic and gamey? Yes. Does it make the game more appealing to non-wargamers? Yes).

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

ComradeP i appreciate your comments...but i do say that this topic was a Wish list. Now i know that they Radioman will not be included thats why i suggested it, because the idea of this subject wish list is so you can but ideas forward that are not in the game.

You are right about not stooping down to that level and i take that on board but i do not like

anyone being dismissive of somebody else when they cannot back up the argument with any proof..basically what was put forward was in affect just saying 'that is not right or thats not what they did' is not putting any conclusive evidence forward to justify there dismissive attitude.

I must confess i like historical accurate games

and if the yanks had the radios so be it..but i dont think thats entirely true.

In terms of the God quote:

but there's no need to communicate in game as you are the "god" that can see the entire battlefield.

ComradeP

I see your point but maybe the chances of calling for reinforcements or arty strikes or simply relaying info could be limited if you have a radioman or not. You could make it work to a degree if you have the imagination to make it happen. A little example just an idea maybe the fog of war could be altered due to The forward observer/Radioman other things could also be altered.

Like i said they had an important role to a fighting force, how they could be implemented is up to the imagination.

---------------------------

"Goddam it, you'll never get the Purple Heart hiding in a foxhole! Follow me!"

Captain Henry P. Jim Crowe - 13th January 1943 - (Guadalcanal)

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

PS ComradeP

Please explain your interpretation of the use radioman with evidence please

quote:

Your comment concerning the usage of radio's indeed lacks some historical understanding and probably won't be included in the game as Forward Observers are not included.

ComradeP

I would like to know what part of historical understanding i lack?

---------------------------------------

"At the present time, it is still too early to say whether this is a large-scale diversionary attack or the main effort"

German C-in-C West - Morning Report for the 6th June 1944

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by Sammy_Davis_Jnr:

Like i said they had an important role to a fighting force, how they could be implemented is up to the imagination.

Well so had mechanics, cooks, runners, donkeys, monkeys and talking parrots (french) but you dont see them in the game.

Im sure I can google a reference or two of these all and badly articulate my opinion on why they should be included and why I R0X0R5... Which I will if I get bored enough. But only in the Peng-thread mind you.

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

Lol Kohler

ahh Kohler obvious you cannot read i have given quotes ( evidence) for the reasons why...but i guess English is not your first language?

Please Kohler explain to me and supply evidence that Radioman were not important to a platoon or a company and so on.

Hey i got an idea lets just have Tanks and grunts (inf) hey that should be fun lets narrow this game as much as possible....

Kohler quoted:

mechanics, cooks, runners, donkeys, monkeys and talking parrots (french) but you dont see them in the game.

Hey if you can supply me with the evidence that those which you have quoted were on the frontline as consistent as forward observer or Radioman then i'll be happy to listen...because having forward observers or some-one with a radio up in the fronline is stupid ( sarcasm in case you did not understand) Geez thank god you were not a commander.

Looking forward for some opposing evidence.

-------------------------

”The only words I spoke to the British commander in the negotiations for the surrender of Singapore were ‘All I want to hear from you is yes or no’. I expected to put the same question to MacArthur.”

General Yama****a - Manila – 10th October 1944

[Spindry69]

So I gather that there will be detailed damage to crews on armour penetration. How about an increased chance of damage to the crew of tanks that had riveted armour (where the armour hit sent broken rivets bouncing around inside the tank) and tanks that had a habit of "brewing up" upon penetration.

I realise this might cause problems with keeping crews alive over sucessive missions where your trying to gain them experience, but it would certainly add to the "pucker factor".

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by Sammy_Davis_Jnr:

ahh Kohler obvious you cannot read i have given quotes ( evidence) for the reasons why...but i guess English is not your first language?

Neither is it yours, correct?

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

Kohler Still waiting for evidence

tick tock tick tock

times almost up

Are you gonna stand and deliver?

------------

"To every man of us, Tobruk was a symbol of British resistance, and we were now going to finish with it for good."

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel - June 1942

[M Hofbauer]

Now it so happened that the cell phone generation with their play-station-expertise and history-channel-knowledge of WW II eventually reached the shores of the CM boards...

But now lets take a look back, more than 60 years ago...

Somewhere in the Ardennes in late 1944. Light snow has fallen. It is cold, and evening dawn sets in.

Freezing in his foxhole, hungry and cold, with the occasional crack of a german sniper rifle and under the constant threat of screaming minnies incoming at any time, Private Sammy decides it was time to do something about his situation.

He looked up from playing snake on his Nokia PRC, and with a firm resolve browsed through his address book until he found the entry for his buddy Cpl. Filth who was over in the other foxhole. With the push of a button connection was established.

Sammy: "yo pick up the phone..uh I mean radio...c'mon filth...pick up the phone already"

Pvt Sammy could hear the crazy frog ring tone blaring all the way over from Cpl Filth's foxhole.

finally..."*click* yo wazzup"

“Ay, FINALLY Filth-man, this is Sammy here. Whaddaya say we got ourselves some Pizza?”

Cpl Filth: “Yo, sorry man, I wuz listening to some latest Marlene Spears on ma M42 ipod (personal listening and entertainment device)...yo man, wazzup? whats that sh*t you’re talking about getting’ some Pizza? wazzup about them germans in the treeline over there?”

Pvt. Sammy: “naw man, no way man, they aint getting no pizza ordering from me. They got themselves their own radios to get their pizza.”

Cpl Filth: “damn right bro but I was thinkin ‘bout was pimpin their freakin emplacement an all that.”

Pvt Sammy:”yo you da man you got that right... awright here goes...cya filth...”

Pvt Sammy calls up the division frontline pizza supply clerk.

adp: “buongiorno, ‘ello. Dis is antonios divisional pizza. how can we help you?”

Pvt Sammy: “headquarters and headquarters troop 1/4 cavalry private sammy talking. I would like to order two 10-inch pizzas for the watch in sector C, one quattro stagioni and one of your friday specials”

adp: “will be delivered at once. anything with that?”

Sammy: “yeah, how about some 105mm arty down on the enemy emplacement 500 yards in front of our position”

adp: “okay-dokay, you want VT fuzes with that?”

Sammy: “anything, man. bring it on, brother”

adp: “very well, your order will be delivered in ten minutes. thank you for your order”

...

meanwhile, over in the german trenchline.

Schütze Hans was frustrated.

„Herr Unteroffizier, meine radio iz not workink !“

Uffz Franz: “propably zis is only interfeerence from ze weather. I told you to get yourzelf eine german Siemens radio, not ze cheap motorola radio.”

Hans: “but ze Siemens has no camera bilt in, you zee? anyhow I am hungry, and I haf to zet up ein date with meine dentist for next week. can I bitte use your radio?”

Franz: “zorry, but meine prepaid card iz emptee and I haf alreddy uzed up all of meine free SMS for zis deployment.”

Hans: “wot about zee radios from Wolfgang or Günther?”

Franz: “on Wolfgangs radio ze batteries are emptee. and remember that Günthers old C-net radio which he had built into his Kubelwagen went up in flames when ze british devil paratroopers deestroyed itt in Arnheim zree months agoh. And vee haf gotten only an Ersatzradio carved from wood.”

Hans (rolling eyes): “wot has zis great army come to? no personal radios - we will lose zis war !”

Franz: “vell you better... - wait ! - wot is this sound ?!? I think I hear somefink incoming….. and I smell something - it smells like… anchovies with garlic and tomatoes ...?”

[ August 29, 2006, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

LOL Hofbauer

Well i can say this Hofbauer you make a better script writer then historian.

You make me laugh so much...ahhh ok guys so you dont have any proof for your comments but hey its good to see that your using your imagination.

I guess when you cant quote or give me one piece...and i say one shred of evidence that they were not important to a fighting force you must rely on fantasy.

Maybe you believe that they were not armed and ran around with a telephone booth around them.

C'mon guys with so many post and yet to produce any evidence. Please Hofbauer dont ever consider being a prosecuter or a historian, leave that to the smart people.

----------------

No other island received as much preliminary pounding as did Iwo Jima. - Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet

[rune]

At the outbreak of war with Finland, Soviet radio drill and equipment lagged only a little behind that of the French, English, and Americans. But this situation quickly deteriorated after the German invasion, and by 1942 radio communication within the Red Army was appalling and abysmal, and would improve only slightly throughout the war. Two of the reasons for this fall from grace were, first, the lack of any Soviet telecommunications industry, and second, Stalin's orders that restricted all "unnecessary" information to Soviet ground troops.

There is one piece.

In reality, it is the reason early tankers had flags to give commands...No radios. Radios were so unreliable, that phone booths were used....field telephones. Wire was laid down by the miles to keep units in communication. Only worked until the wire was cut by enemy artillery.

The runner system was used by all armies. Worked well for the british when the radio were sent with the wrong crystal to Arnhem.

Problems with WWII radios included that they were line of sight, easily jammed or blocked by terrain, and big and bulky. Yes, when they worked they increased communications greatly, but do NOT assume they worked all the time or they were reliable.

Rune

[rune]

Here is the standard Commonwealth radio, not sure if the Canadians used it in numbers, maybe one of the guys can answer.

Wireless Set No. 18 was a man pack transmitter/receiver developed in 1940. Use: portable man pack for short range communication in forward areas between Battalion HQ and Company HQ. Frequency range 6-9MHz. MO control. RF output 0.25W. R/T, CW. Range up to 10 miles. No. 68 Set is similar but with different frequency range. Standard WW2 set.

10 miles is a bit hopeful.

Rune

[rune]

Here you see the Russian Commander had no radio. In fact, during the battle, multiple times he had to run back and forth to his tank support to tell them what to do.

With two of my platoons, I came through to the opposite side of the village and took the German trenches that were already empty. That night battle has imprinted itself deep into my memory. We fought off German counterattacks until sunrise. I had no communications with neither the company commander nor Vjunov's platoon. I didn't even know where they were. A machine-gun platoon commander Lieutenant Alexander Guschenkov noticed the direction of my attack. He didn't get confused in the middle of that nightmare and came to our aid. With two crews of "Maxim" machine-guns he took the position on the unprotected right flank of my platoons. They were of the great help to us. The other two companies of our battalion fought on the left flank. The third platoon from our company was also somewhere there.

As I remember, there were no less than 15 German "Tiger" tanks. The number of infantry I could not determine because of the darkness. And only three T-34-85 tanks supported me. Their crews were rookies, and it was their first battle. They fired rarely, fearing that the German tanks would detect them by their muzzle flashes. When houses began to burn, they tried to move farther away into the darkness. Their retreat although shortl had a bad effect on my soldiers most of whom were rookies too. Even veterans were nervous beyond the normal but they held on and kept firing. But everyone was glancing back at the tanks, fearing that the tanks would abandon us retreating to the rear. Therefore I had to run to the tanks and stop them if they moved too far away, forcing them to get closer to us. From time to time I also had to run and see how Gushenkov was doing on my right flank and then return to my soldiers.

This was January 1945, and still no radios. The gentleman's name was Evgeni Bessonov, and he was the acting company commander, and even at that level, no radio.

Rune

[ComradeP]

I would like to know what part of historical understanding i lack?

That radio's with infantry units were primarily used to call down artillery, when they worked at all. There are no FO's in this game, so radio's (or any other form of communication device) are useless. That's the point the people that replied to you have been trying to make (in somewhat inappropriate ways at times).

You think of WWII as high tech, always functional modern-like radio's, but reality was different, hence the "lack of historical understanding" comment, which was meant to indicate just that: a lack of understanding for the history of the equipment. American mass produced radio's were not of a high quality, either.

Multiple nations, with Germany taking the lead, also employed motorcycle couriers, because the Funk signals could not get through.

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

Yes some interesting points but i did find this:

War is won on the ground. The use of signal FM radios enabled American troops to move rapidly by providing reliable, static-free communications. In contrast, the Germans still depended upon AM radio. (See George Raynor Thompson's comments on FM's impact on the battlefield, and Carol Stokes' article about the Signal Corps' role in developing FM.)

The signal laboratories' contributions to victory in WWII were as numerous as they were significant. A process that had been almost entirely long-range, research-oriented in the 1930s was adapted to meet the needs of a wartime army and invasion force. It succeeded and justified the dreams, time and expenditures of a nation at war.

Dr. Andrae, the administration officer at the National Science Center, Fort Gordon, Ga., has been interested in military history since he was in elementary school. He holds an EdD in adult education from the University of Georgia.

--------------

"My strength has now been reduced to the equivalent of 36 squadrons...we should be able to carry on the war single-handed for some time if not indefinitely."

Sir Hugh Dowding - RAF Fighter Command - May 1940

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

ps if any one is interested

this is a great site for asking questions about ww2 communications

I have found it very helpful

http://www.gordon.army.mil/AC/default.asp

They are going to send me some more information about the use of radio in the field ... i must say rune and comradeP did offer some interesting points .. but from there e-mail ( army communicator) they see it very differently.

---------------

"The fate of the Empire rests on this enterprise every man must devote himself totally to the task in hand."

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - Commander in Chief of the Japanese Navy - 7th December 1941

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

ok try this site as well i think last site link is broken

Sorry about that.

http://www.gordon.army.mil/AC/WWII/SCWWII.asp

[rune]

Sammy, you are taking one Army and applying to the world, it just doesn't work that way. The US Army was much different then others, for example, more wheeled transports then the Russian or German Army. Ditto for radios.

I know it is a wish list, and it doesn't hurt to have things you want added to the game. just don't assume what is good for one army will work in the game for all armies.

Rune

[MorgTzu]

Probably some of the most interesting posts since day one of the TOW forum...my experience is limited to the 82nd Airborne of the 80's and 3rd ID of the early 90's but my historic passion since childhood has been the desert campaigns and the Ardennes battles both for family historical reasons and an admiration for the leaders on both sides. I think I have read almost everything that has been published on Rommel, I'm not going to quote or be banal, but many of you buffs see it pretty straight in your posts, from what I have read, radio was a strategic desire (or a luxury) for almost every Army except the Americans and later the British and a few allies...who saw the radio early on as a tactical neccesity. The biography "Soldat" also confirms this. Even as late as '45, the Germans heavily depended on field telephones, even more so in every theatre after Ultra was realized.

It seems that some of the items being asked for or mentioned in the wishlist/other topics are out of scale for company(-)size battles anyway (please, in the name of decent gaming, make airstrikes an option). I have more i'd like to say, but I've already been longwinded..

A radical Idea/wish.... that TOW would eventually morph, become the WW2 equivalent of "Armed Assault" (the next step of Op Flashpoint)... 400km x 400km battle area, just google it, looks intriguing.

[Tarquelne]

You want to dismiss other people but you cant back up what you say. why????

Because previous attempts to explain failed?

I'll try.

They called for an artillery strike on they position.

The game has no FO system.

If there was an FO system, then it'd be good to distinguish between ones with radios, ones with wires, and ones waving their hats.

An FO system of some sort would be nice, but not really for the radiomen.

While Radioman John Gallagher (upper left) was sending critical shore-to-ship messages for Commander Carusi from the Fox Green sector of Omaha Beach,

Beyond the scope of the game. Though maybe a special victory condition could be set up. But that's "Scriptable victory conditions", not radiomen per se.

He soon had the ship-to-shore radio working so the officers could direct the movement of troops and materials ashore.

Beyond the scope of the game, and no CC system in the game anyway.

Should the game get a CC system, radio men might become meaningful. As things are - and will be fore the foreseeable future - they aren't: Their effects are beyond the scope of the game.

OTOH, given the "borg" effect of having one player control everything, you could pretend every unit in the game - every tank, every individual soldier, every gun - has a radio and/or radioman. (If you can't see them it's because they're so small - radiomenlets.)

How's that?

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

@ Rune

I understand what you are saying but like have stated this should be a historical accurate game..it should contain f/o like it should contain snipers or medics.

The fact that the US had the ability to use Radio more frequent should not stop its implementation.

E.G Germans Actually had better tanks at the start of the war that does not mean they are not allowed to use them. Should all tanks have the same penetration rates to make it fair?

If one country has an advantage or flaw then that should be accounted for ..that makes it historical accurate.

---------------

# We no longer demand anything, we want war. - Germany's foreign minister, August 1939.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Sammy_Davis_Jnr:

E.G Germans Actually had better tanks at the start of the war

keep going, you're actually getting quite good at this.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by MorgTzu:

and 3rd ID of the early 90's

no ****?

where ya been - WRZ, SFT, B.K., BAM, KITZ, Katterbach, Vilseck ?

Rock of da Marne, baybee !