AAR continued...

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

In fact: I'm surprised people that want more realism are actually mocked on these forums. It's like all the people that claim to have played and to love CM or CC actually on like "wargame light" games. Why do you moan about CM or CC not including something, when you're OK with major ommissions in other games, such as this one?

in case you hadn't noticed: there's been a change in paradigm.

colorful RTS is all the rage now here.

the emperor's new clothes are shiny flashy graphics.

and of course everybody better get with the program and hail the new golden calf.

Not a major problem for me since I had always admitted to being a CC fan; but indeed it is funny to see some of the local CC hater crowd (individual soldiers, no turns, campaigns, upgrades, medals!)

having to adopt to the new vogue...

at the very least ToW really does bring very fresh and different air into these boards...

[sebastian]

Originally posted by Moon:

3) The "unit" in this game is one soldier, not a squad. (...) which only emphasizes that you are not really commanding squads, but individual solders.

Sounds like a micro-management-click-fest to me. Wouldn't it be smarter to make selecting/commanding squads the "default case" (single click on one of the squad members, like in Close Combat)? Having to find the commander, in order to move the entire squad doesn't sound comfortable.

The case where you want to command every single soilder, is rather the "special case": Holding shift or ctrl schould give orders only to the soilder you actually clicked, and not the the entire squad.

[ComradeP]

sebastian: there might be a click-and-drag select function, and there's a pause button. I don't think squad leaders will be difficult to spot either.

[sebastian]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

sebastian: there might be a click-and-drag select function

Selecting individual soilders with an drag-rectangle is anoying. Especially when squads are close to each other, mixed, the soilders are scattered around, hidden behind cover, you always end up selecting some guys you don't want to select, and omitting some you wanted in. You spend most of the time selecting/deselecting units.

In CC you move the mouse over a soilder, and his entire squad is hilited, giving you information about it. Clicking on any member selects the whole squad , which is what you want 95% of the time. Otherwise you would end up with splitted squads and single soilders left behind and forgotten.

I don't think squad leaders will be difficult to spot either.

And when the leaders are dead, there are no squads anymore. Just soilders, you can select with a huge drag-rectangle and perform a human wave attack, like in Warcraft? Normally when a leader gets killed, the guy with the highest rank / expierence is the new leader.

[ComradeP]

Personally, I like micro management, so it's just a personal opinion that I don't really care if I have to select every soldier/tank. I can, however, understand that such micromanagement might be overly complicated for some, or rather cumbersome with a lot of units on screen. The pause function does help though.

[sebastian]

I'm not against micro management. There were moments in CC, when I wanted to give individual orders to a certain soilder. But 95% of the time I want to give orders to the whole squad.

Selecting individual soilders should not be the normal case. What is the point of having squads, if I have to keep them together manually? I can't even imagine playing CC or Firefight like this.

Even clickfest-RTS are are going to squad selection (Battle of Middle Earth, Dawn of War).

[ August 06, 2006, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: sebastian ]

[RMC]

The ability to controller individual soldiers is a great option, but I would appreciate a squad-level ordering option even after the SL get whacked.

[Megakill]

Originally posted by Yeknodathon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 1Cowboy8:

Your precious CMx2 hasn't been impacted by this game development. Please go to that forum and bitch that its not done yet and that the realism isn't perfect on it yet either. Otherwise step off Bozos and let these men work.

Well, there's a thought... this game and future development between 1C and BFC would be very appetizing. </font>

[Moon]

Originally posted by sebastian:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon:

3) The "unit" in this game is one soldier, not a squad. (...) which only emphasizes that you are not really commanding squads, but individual solders.

Sounds like a micro-management-click-fest to me. Wouldn't it be smarter to make selecting/commanding squads the "default case" (single click on one of the squad members, like in Close Combat)? Having to find the commander, in order to move the entire squad doesn't sound comfortable.

The case where you want to command every single soilder, is rather the "special case": Holding shift or ctrl schould give orders only to the soilder you actually clicked, and not the the entire squad. </font>

[RMC]

Can these hot-keyed, ad hoc groups be given the same tactical formation orders as the organic squads/teams?

[Moon]

Yup, RMC.

Martin

[RMC]

Cool beans.

[M Hofbauer]

what about this "leader-dies-no-more-ordering-possible" thing then?

do these ad-hoc grouped squads instantly create the highest-ranking / most senior member as the leader?

[RMC]

No, they're democratic. No oligarchs.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by RMC:

No, they're democratic. No oligarchs.

but why then the famous Bundeswehr Feldwebel phrase "Wir sind hier nicht im Bundestag !!!" when a fresh recruit dares to muse about discussing the logic and practicability behind a certain order ?

I thought this was one of the many Wehrmacht traditions (~"nicht im Reichstag!!")carried over as part of the "proud military heritage" AFN always talks about?

[RMC]

Well, when the leader dies, the remainder revert to their natural state. They quickly forget all these Himmelstossian exhortations and go back to groupthink.

[sebastian]

Originally posted by Moon:

I should have mentioned perhaps that you can group units dynamically and access them with hotkeys.

Thats a nice feature, but to select the soilders, I will sitll have to drag several rectangles holding shift, and still will forget the one guy, that was off screen. Me and many people here are not Wracraft players, that like to have to remember a dozen selection hotkeys.

You schould at least consider to expand the leader functionallity, to all soilders: double click on a soilder selects the whole squad.

I personally would prefer it the other way around: single click : the whole squad, doubble click : the individual soilder.

[Moon]

sebastian... you don't need to drag rectangles around your soldiers. Once you assigned them to a hotkey, they get selected automatically, no matter where they are. That's the whole point.

What I usually do is select my squad guys and assign each squad its own key during the setup phase already. (I do the same with tanks, effectively splitting them into platoons)

Martin

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Moon:

sebastian... you don't need to drag rectangles around your soldiers. Once you assigned them to a hotkey, they get selected automatically, no matter where they are. That's the whole point.

What I usually do is select my squad guys and assign each squad its own key during the setup phase already. (I do the same with tanks, effectively splitting them into platoons)

Martin

thats exactly sebastian's point:

sebastian complains

Originally posted by sebastian:

Thats a nice feature, but to select the soilders, I will sitll have to drag several rectangles holding shift, and still will forget the one guy, that was off screen. Me and many people here are not Wracraft players, that like to have to remember a dozen selection hotkeys.

[RMC]

Ok, sounds like it's time for in-depth INTERFACE ANALYSIS.

Somebody cull the screenshots that show the interface layout, buttons, order menu and whatnot. Hop to it.

[Moon]

M Hofbauer, point taken, but what works well for one person might not work good for somebody else. I personally would hate to have to doubleclick each time I want to select an individual soldier for example.

Due to the little icons on top of each soldier/unit selecting your forces is really not a big problem in TOW (e.g when you click on them, you jump to that soldiers/units position). It's a pretty slick implementation, and I say this not only because we've chosen something similar for CMSF ourselves

Martin

[RMC]

Wait, you mean that the clickable roster thing argued about so much back in the early CM days has actually been implemented in CM:SF? Whoa. Head rush...

[Arkel]

I saw some new screenshots...

http://www.theatreofwar.de/index.php?menu=news&newsid=130

I think someone just learned that the ferdinand isn't made for close combat

[sebastian]

Originally posted by Moon:

I personally would hate to have to doubleclick each time I want to select an individual soldier for example.

Then how about:

single click : the individual soilder

double click (on any squad member): the whole squad

or even better, a switch to swap these assignments? I think many CC and CM veterans would appreciate such a option very much.

[ComradeP]

Ferdinand side armour: roughly 80mm.

76.2 mm F-34 L/42.5, L/41.51

(1940 & 1942)

Ammunition type:

BR-350A APHE

Weight:

6.3 kg

Velocity:

2,150 ft/sec, 662 m/sec

Penetration power at various ranges (in mm's):

100M:90

500M:69

1000M:61

1500M:forget it

2000M:see above

Ammunition type:

BR-350P APCR

Weight:

3.04 kg

Velocity:

965 m/sec

Penetration power at various ranges(in mm's):

100M:90

500M:92

1000M:58-60

1500M:forget it

2000M:see above

Ammunition type:

BR-354A HEAT

Weight:

3.94 kg

Velocity:

?

Penetration power at various ranges(in mm's):

100M:negligible

500M:75

1000M:75

1500M:75

2000M:75

Ammunition type:

APCBC

Weight:

?

Velocity:

?

Penetration power at various ranges(in mm's):

100M:30

500M:56

1000M:50

1500M:45

2000M:40

As a comparison between the M4 and the T34:

The Sherman as a whole possesed greater firepower than the T34. The American 75mm was superior to the Russian 76mm in both AT and HE capability. The American 76mm was superior to the Russian 85mm in AT capabilities while slightly inferior in HE. (The U.K. 17pdr mounted in the Sherman Firefly was light years ahead of all those guns in AT capability.)

When we take the relatively low quality of Russian shells into account, that Ferdinand has an excellent chance to survive without a penetration.

Edit: oh, and judging by the unit information in the lower left corner, this is an T34 M41 (in 1943), which increases the survivability of the Ferdinand.