Fred19 Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I hate to ask, but have there been changes made to the drawing routines of the bots? They get ALL the cards they need; almost ALWAYS! :eek: Their wingmen in particular: When they hunt you, they always have a full hand of attack cards and when you've played your last counter card, they easily draw the one and only card that nullifies it - with deadly precision. You try to take a shot at them? No problem for the bots! They have defensive cards of all kinds to counter your efforts with ease. That is, if your Wingie ever gets the chance to attack: He usually got 2 x man, 1 x scissor and he ALWAYS draws a defensive card when you dare to try to strenghten his ability to attack. Of course it's exactly the other way round when he has to defend himself: OOTS3:4, IMSD:2, and - yes, correct - the inevitable scissors card (needless to say he'll draw an OOTS2:3 in that case)! :mad: I want my purchaseable IMSD:2 card back!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggs Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Yeah bots seem pretty hardy of late. Also the fact that they all have Target Pilot is pretty rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Nope. No changes to the card drawing logic. We give the bot pilots some extra skills to compensate for their less than intelligent play, and we're always trying to figure out ways of making them player smarter, but we have never put in code that allows them to cheat by drawing specific cards or looking at player's hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fej425 Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Is there no way to compensate for my own less than intelligent play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Oh theres changes comming, just you wait and see! May not have anything to do with smarter play, but you had better become smarter my friends!!! -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi all. Sounds like some people got spoiled with the 2:Destroy card. Just join the Top Gun School of hard knocks. I have been Dogfighting from the beginning. I never bought the 2:Dest. card because to me it's a cheat card. I could shot 4 planes down with my leader 4 out of 5 times. :cool: Winning the highest award was a piece of cake. I was going to get 12 VC's for my Brits than they got rid of buying the 2:destroy card. Rats!! I joined the 2:Destroy club to late. Remember to Fly Smarter, and you'll live a lot longer. Your not in Kansas any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred19 Posted December 29, 2005 Author Share Posted December 29, 2005 It's not so much the loss of the IMSD:2 card that makes me grieve (actually I supported that measure) but the way the bot wingmen behave recently (though Brian said no changes have been made, so I blame it on bad luck during the last three days or so). All that smartness is in vain when you have to stand against a wingman who simply always gets/draws exactly the card(s) he needs and I mean E-X-A-C-T-L-Y! I got so mad during my last games against them that I wanted to write down every single move but then it appears to be too much work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 I'm with you Fred. Lately I'm getting absolutely smoked! I'm really really surpised half my pilots aren't dead. Almost every mission I'm getting either me or my wingman shot down and usually my bombers don't make it either. There's definetly been an adjustment to the bots since the skills change. It is much much harder. Especially after a bot wingman on seemingly every single turn playing 3 or 4 successful cards in a row against you, then drawing another card then playing that, then the bot leader just picking up the pieces and finishing you off. I just hope it's not something to draw more player vs player action. Not that I'm suggesting anything, or saying that is the case, but some like me just prefer battling the bots, and if I get too frustrated playing something that's supposed to be fun, I'll just walk away. It's just a game to me. I don't think I've ever see as many high scoring aces bite the bullet as I have this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi all. You all talk about bad luck. If any of my pilots lose ED they truly are on death's door. The last 7 pilots that have been shot down have all died. I was beginning to think my pilots just don't take there chutes with them. Talk about confidents. I will tell you all if any of my pilots ever save themselves by bailing out. I'm beginning to think my pilots are MARKED FOR DEATH. I see your guys bail out safely with no ED so it still works. Just not for my guys. I know all about them DEATH dealing wingmen. I've waved my knuckles at my computer screen so MANY times my kids think that's how you play/work a computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 That's my perception, also. I feel I'm being forced to go after the wingies first. If my leader has decent 'attack' cards, I'll use my wingman to distract his leader, but my leader will go for the wingman. It just doesn't "feel" right. True, at lower expirence levels, the wingmen are 'balanced', but at the higher levels with multiple draws and such, you can't afford to ignore them and concentrate on the leaders, where it seems you should be concentrating. It seems (to me) that the wingman's role should be to assist the leader and not be near the factor they are (at higher levels) on aggressivness. Maybe even something such as them having to play a Manuver card before they can play each IMS/OTS type of card, would bring them back towards balancing???? Also, take away the ability for wingman to "Draw an Extra Card". (???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 hmmm...After my previous post, I went online and flew a 2vs2 figher bot game. The 1st turn, the Randy wingman gets 6 points of damage, and the leader finishes me off. By the 3rd turn, my wingman was dead (not just shot down, but dead-dead). My bot allies shared the same fate. My pilots never even got a chance to fire a single shot. The bot leader got to shoot one time, to no effect. This was not fun, just very frustrating. My leader has 1066 expirence points, Natural Pilot, Zoom Climb, Evasive, Marksman, Redline, and High Performance. He started this turn with 31 available points to spend, which he didn't use. My wingman "had" Natural Pilot, Spoil Aim, Distract Leader, Distract Wingman, Anticipation, and Teamwork. I don't know what the bots had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi guys, I think this limits the game, especially strategicly. Even in a real life dogfight a pilot will pick the weaker postioned plane to attack. I believe that the wingman has his good points, and sometimes you pay for going after the wingman and not the leader. I do think they should have the same rules apply to them as does a leader, only less cards to play to simulate them being "lesser" pilots to the leader. But as far as not being able to hose the wingy first, you will have to have Dan or Brian tell us why that was a design decision. With the new stuff Dan and Brian are working on you will even think the wingman is even more powerful. But you guys have to remember one thing about air combat in WWII. There were very few pilots, no matter how talented ever hit some of the kill scores that are on the leaderboard. I mean Hartmann, Beurling, Boyington, Muchenburg, Saito, and whoever else I can think of had lots of their victory totals fabricated by either them or their governments. 350 planes shot down would be a hell of a feat when most pilots never even became aces with 5 kills. Hell if you look at Japanese claims of kills during the PTO, they claim MORE than the US even lost.... So I guess even though I have been pissed off at some of the things I have seen and had happen to me in this game with the uberness of the AI and so on, and believe me I miss some of my pilots, but hey you can always create another one. But the wingman is usually the least of my worries these days. -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 But how much fun would it be to have to make a new pilot every 10 missions? I have no objections to getting chewed up in a good dogfight, but lately it just hasn't been pretty. And I'm running out of duct tape to cover my bullet holes! :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Verssen Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I'll fly a few missions and try to get a feel for whether there is something odd going on, or if you guys have just run into a patch of bad luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I think the comment about the wingmen having to do similar moves as the leader would go a long way in resolving this. It's not our (or at least my) wingman who are able to do, even half, of the moves available to the bot wingman. And that is a good point, of the game being too easy to shoot down planes. I wouldn't mind that aspect getting adjusted (by increasing Airframes ???) and relying on 'hits' more for scoring. Making it less likely to shoot down planes, would make acheiving Ace status a nice factor. If the Airframe factors were increased, then it's possible that the current (and future) wingman abilites could remain as designed. (?????) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 This is my 2 cents. There is NO major differents from now and what we had 2 months ago. I think it's not as hard as it used to be. Will for some of my pilots anyway. My low to mid level pilots 300 to 900 points were having to fight like dogs to get anywhere. That has not changed for me. I think the players are finding out what it's like to always fight 4 pilots instead of 3 because the 2:Destroy is off the market. I never bought it until 2 day's before it was pulled. That's why it feels the some to me. Go after the wingman first unless you know you can take out a leader. Watch the cards played, and that can help you decide who is ripe for the KILL. Happy Hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Mistura, I think you are overestimating the 2:Destroy card. I always, and still do, buy an Ace Pilot card, and the game has gotten much harder. Now, if they tell me the AI learns and adapts, I could understand that, and bow down to their greatness! It could be a string of bad luck, it could be a string of just drawing bad cards, or it could be the world is out to get me, I'm not sure which. :eek: I think getting rid of the Draw extra card feature for wingmen would be a great help, but leave the Redraw feature. You've got Wingmen getting 7 to 8 cards against a bomber with no restrictions. Makes them much more powerful than the leader. Just my 2 cents worth, I think you guys are doing a great job with the game. It's evolution, baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Verssen Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I've flown 7 missions against the bots in the last 2 days, all 1v1. From what I can tell nothing has changed in their toughness. I tried to fly a variety of planes and XP levels. Here are the details of the missions... Mission #1... Me: P-40Ns Bots: Bf-110s Outcome: (Me: Flipped and Undamaged), (Bots: Killed and Undamaged) Mission #2... Me: Fw-190s Bots: P-38s Outcome: (Me: Killed and Undamaged), (Bots: Flipped and Undamaged) Mission #3... Me: Bf-109Bs Bots: Buffalos Outcome: (Me: Undamaged and Undamaged), (Bots: Flipped and Killed) Mission #4... Me: Fw-190s Bots: Hurricane IIs Outcome: (Me: Undamaged and Undamaged), (Bots: Killed and Killed) Mission #5... Me: Gladiators Bots: Oscars Outcome: (Me: Undamaged and Undamaged), (Bots: Killed and Undamaged) Mission #6... Me: Nates Bots: P-35s Outcome: (Me: Undamaged and Undamaged), (Bots: Flipped and Undamaged) Mission #7... Me: P-40Ns Bots: Tonys Outcome: (Me: Undamaged and Undamaged), (Bots: Killed and Killed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred19 Posted December 30, 2005 Author Share Posted December 30, 2005 I guess it's a matter of experience: while on low to mid exp level the bots are an adequate enemy, the AI becomes dramatically advantaged when it comes to fighting in the 5000+ region. But, in regard to one of my previous posts, it might have been an extraordinary sort of bad luck - had a couple of fights today when the machine driven wingman didn't shoot me to pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Low to mid exp level...that's my perception also. Things seem to be ok and are just a very nice challenge...it's the higher levels that are frustrating. Fred19 uses 5000+, but my highest are a bit over 1000 and I am expirencing the wingman unbalance. I understand the comments about nothing has changed, but I'm just now reaching these levels which would be what accounts for my comments and perceptions on what's occuring. I'm just saying that my perception is that the wingman are "too much" of a deciding factor at these higher levels, unless something like increasing the Airframe factor could be implemented. As my comment earlier, I agree with the observation that planes are being shot down too easy, and Ace status currently has no effect on the game. Another possible adjustment could be making the IMS/OTS 2+ damage cards as a lower percentage of being drawn (?????) It's difficult to shoot down planes at the beginning levels, and no one seems to have issues with this. I sure don't. I'm just advocating that the higher levels be something similar to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Hi all. 2 months ago we were fighting MEGA ACES flying the best plane in the opposite Air Force. 6 plus card draws with target pilot X3, and that was every game. Now you can fight a different aircraft instead of the same thing. I have nothing as high as 5000 points yet, but I'm working on it. Talk about BAD LUCK. I just had my 8th pilot DIE in a row without ED. My pilots just don't pack there chutes. It can't be WORST than that for any of you players. I'm just waiting for MY luck to change in the BAIL OUT DEPARTMENT. Better Luck To All. Happy Hunting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I find that with my higher level pilots (3000+)the 'new' opponent selection criteria give you more of a fighting chance than under the ancien regime. The battles tend to be decided one way or another in the first turn or two, the rest is chasing down the fleeing foe (or fleeing oneself). My feeling that the only way to stay alive against the higher level bots seems to be to lay out some serious points on extra cards/re-draws and an Ace Pilot then try to nail the wingman, or at least avoid having to take attacks from an undamaged wingman, wherever possible. I have also found that if you don't win early you will drown under a tidal wave of bot 'Draw Extra Cards.' Still a chancy old business though and your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 What's UNBELIEVABLE is cyrano01 posting at the same time as me. How often does that happen with about 12 posts a day. HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred19 Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 Oops, did I write 5000+ ? Actually I do not have any pilot in that range... Please make it 2000+ and blame the 5000 on a couple of Pilsener Urquell I had too much yesterday when I celebrated the purchase of a new truck. Happy New Year Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Hmm, I haven't been playing in awhile but just ran through a few missions versus the Bots(my Pilots 8500 to 14500 points) and would have to say they are still as easy as ever to beat. I agree with the poster above in that it was actually harder a few months ago. Sometimes you have the cards and sometimes you don't, and whatever the case, you have to play smart with what you have and understand the situation - the option of buying or not buying IMS2:D has little effect on this. There is no hard-and-fast rule for play in this game to guarantee the outcome. I haven't lost a Pilot KIA in a looong time because, as I have learned from playing some good opponents, it is better to run/play defensively than to force the issue. Ron aka Zonso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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