Countries That Switch Sides

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin began a thread in which a number of us were discussing the possibility of France, in WWII, coming back after it's defeat as a true Axis member.

I enjoyed that discussion but think there's a problem in that it was too specific.

As the game editor can create wars from any era and any situation, it would seem to me that this would be a good general option.

Historically there are innumerable instances of countries starting one side during a prolonged war and ending on another.

So, let's treat it as a general situation.

Three Categories of Countries. (Revised & expanded to five types -- see addition to bottom of this post).

I) Will never switch sides, must be defeated and can only be conquered.

II) Remote possibility of switching sides after being successfully invaded.

III) Will probably switch sides after being successfully invaded.

And that's it, nothing fancy, no reams of script for Hubert to deal with and all that.

Also, Mr Cater, I think it would help if you popped in at some point to say you either do or don't like the concept (which is really Edwin's) and if you don't we'll discuss something else.

Expanded and Added to as per input by Lars and Edwin.

(copied here from subsequent post of 5/11)

Regarding Nation Types, what I was thinking was -- let's say there would eventually be five classes of countries in regard to this factor, with -I- being impossible to turn and -V- being the most likely. At the start of the game there each country would have one of those five numbers.

Players could use the game editor to change the values if they wanted.

Historically, Italy would be a -IV- as it switched after being severely mauled (but before it's capital was taken.

Let's say they are as follows:

- I -

Will not change sides, can only be conquered.

In WWII, UK, Germany and USA would fit that description.

- II -

Not a very good chance of being turned, but it's a possibility.

In WWII France and Vichy France fit here.

- III -

Will switch sides if defeated militarily and it's own soil is invaded -- a specific loss of major cities, say 2, without the capital having been taken.

Italy fits here.

- IV -

Will change sides if the situation is perceived as severe -- such as direct contact broken with it's major allies and enemy @overwhelming strength at it's borders.

In WWII Finland, Romania and Hungary would fit here.

- V -

As per Lars suggestion, this is a country that will switch sides if a neighboring nation it has close ties to is invaded by it's own side.

In WWII Yugoslavia would fit into this category. It was virtually part of the Axis till Italy invaded Greece. Greece would also fit into this category. It too was gravitating toward the Axis when it was invaded by the Italians. We can assume it would have fought the Axis if Yugoslavia had been invaded instead (the two countries were ruled by related families, cousins).

-- The scenario editor would use type I as the default and players can alter nations from there according to the game they're planning.

[ May 11, 2005, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Lars]

You forgot IV: Will switch sides if somebody else is invaded.

[JerseyJohn]

Okay, let's elaborate on that.

-- I sort of have an idea what you mean, but I'm not sure.

The classic example of countries switching sides would be Napoleons withdrawal from Russia during the winter of 1812-13. Austria, Prussia and several others went from having contributed troops to his Grand Armee the previous year to jumping ship and fielding armies to fight his ragged survivors.

Specifically regarding your point,

IV -- A country is siding with Major A and changes to fight with Major B because Nation C was invaded? By which side? Also, an historical example would help, but if it's totally hypothetical that's fine as well since we're talking about the game editor in general.

[Edwin P.]

Is my history correct?

WWII - Nationalist Chinese aided by the Japanese fight the Communists but ultimately ally with the Communists to fight the Japanese after China proper is invaded, and then the Communists turn on the Nationalists after the Japanese are defeated.

--------------------------------------------

Question:

Remote chance of switching sides after being invaded. How do you quantify being invaded? When it comes time to surrender or when enemy forces greater than 3x local forces are in your country.

-------------------------------------------

Question:

Would it make sense to add to the War Screen an option to threaten a nation? If you threaten a weaker nation based on the number of Units on the Border they may agree to join your side.

Example - Germany moves 3 units to the Austria Border. The player then goes to the War Screen, selects Austria and then selects Ultimatium. Based on the number of units on the Border Austria may

1. Immediately join the Axis.

2. Reject the Ultimatium, begin entrenching and its pro-Axis leaning is reduced by a random amount.

3. Joins the Allies at the end of the turn.

Of course some nations would never submit to an ultimatium but some would.

Enchancement: You can't DOW a nation in the same turn that you give it an ultimatium.

[ May 10, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Lars]

I can't think of a specific WWII example off the top of my head but,

Major Country A, allied with Minor Country C and belligerent with Major Country B, invades Minor Country D. Country C switches sides over it to fight with Major Country B against Major Country A.

Perhaps any of the Eastern European countries, Spain and Finland might fit the bill under certain circumstances.

Of course, there's always the "Revert to Neutral" option too.

[Edwin P.]

Lars, I like your idea for the Return to Neutral option.

If you anger an ally or they lose the will to figt they may return to neutrality.

[Lars]

Depends on how bad you pissed them off, don't it?

[Edwin P.]

Yes, JerseyJohn and I discussed this in another post.

Example 1:

Suppose Germany gave control of Algeria and Vichy France to Spain, to encourage them to join the Axis. That may upset Italy and cause them to withdraw from the Axis and return to neutrality.

Example 2:

If the UK does not send any assistance to France then France may to seek terms with Germany and withdraw fromo the Western Alliance.

Example: On Turn XX/XX/XX if NO UK Unit in France then 25% Germany Receives a Pop-up: French Offer to withdraw from War. If the Germans accept France returns to Neutrality and leaves Britain to fight the Axis alone.

[ May 10, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

Good Good...Keep those idea's comming!.

The LURKER'S/TROLL'S(WE KNOW WHAT TO CALL THEM NOW) don't need to bother reading any of this...since they have spent years already hashing all of these and other ideas out...and in their wisdom...have deemed them unfit to be worth any real consideration!.

The snake will only rise out of the grass to spit poison when it feels threatened or upset.

[JerseyJohn]

Lars,

I wasn't so much looking for a WWII example, though I'm sure there must be one or two, as one from history, as I'm sure there are many. In any event, as we're talking about the Game Editor more than specific WWII scenarios, it's still a good consideration.

Edwin,

I'm not certain about the Japanese having financed the Chines Communists against the Nationalists prior to their invasion of Mainland China, but it's a distinct possibility. Trying to sort out China in the 1920s and early 30s would make anyone dizzy.

Once the war with Japan began, the Communists adapted a strategy of avoiding direct confrontation with the Japanes while building the Chinese countryside, supposedly to support the Nationalists in their fight against the common enemy. Meanwhile, the Nationalists were going through villages creating chain gangs of young men to fight in their army. At War's end the Nationalists were hated and the Communists were loved. That's evident in the fact that within two years of the war's end the Nationalists were reduced to the island of Formosa (Taiwan).

I'm sure there are many instances in the Asian Theater that would support these ideas.

Retributar,

Yes, we should certainly keep the ideas coming!

-- I wouldn't include either of the gentlemen from that French thread in either of those groups, however.

The one, though fairly new, has already demonstrated a lively ability to contribute to these forums.

The other is a person I have a great deal of admiration for as a person and an equal amount as an SC contributor. Many of the best game improvements that have been discussed in this Forum have either been his ideas, or ideas he fought for with myself, Edwin and others last year and earlier, before the SC2 concept even existed.

-- I reacted emotionally to the term Lurker Mode. Which was unfortunate because it in no way describes his history here.

Naturally I've always felt that anything even remotely pertaining to war strategy game concepts should be discussed here and can't see anyone pointing a finger at people and criticizing them for discussing these topics.

If something is too far out to be considered, Hubert won't consider it. So where's the need to pop in and speak against people discussing a concept?

To cite just one example, two years back I proposed a game much more conplete game and map editor. I'm sure I wasn't the first, Sea Monkey had a similar idea a year ahead of me and it was ignored! When I proposed it there was an immediate uproar about it being a ridiculous request that was only working against real and reasonable suggestions, etc & etc. Well, it seems that wasn't the case.

Anyway, as you said, let's keep the ideas flowing, no matter how outlandish. Imagine humans flying in the sky? How ridiculous, if God meant that to be we'd have been born with wings. Why, it's almost as absurd as the earth orbiting the sun instead of the other way around.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn,

1. I think you meant the Japanese financed the Nationalists not the Communists.

2. Original Topic

Three Categories of Countries.

I) Will never switch sides, must be defeated and can only be conquered.

II) Remote possibility of switching sides after being successfully invaded.

III) Will probably switch sides after being successfully invaded.

Do you mean that a pop-up box will appear that gives the conquering/invading nation a choice between plundering the nation and accepting it as an ally at the end of its turn?

Case 1: Zero% Popup Option Appears

Case 2: % Popup Option Appears

Case 3: 100% Popup Option Appears

Example: Napolean Takes Berlin and a Popup box appears saying:

Category 3: 100% Popup

"The <German King> has lost the war and proposes an alliance with France. Do we accept his proposal or plunder the country?"

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

I don't think the Japanese financed either side in China. Certainly not the Nationalists as they had almost all of the country before the Japanese expanded out of Manchuria.

I think we're talking about is the Germans selling equipment to Chiang Kai Chek's Nationalists as they wore German helmets!

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin and Lars ...

Regarding Nation Types, what I was thinking was -- let's say there would eventually be five classes of countries in regard to this factor, with -I- being impossible to turn and -V- being the most likely. At the start of the game there each country would have one of those five numbers.

Players could use the game editor to change the values if they wanted.

Historically, Italy would be a -IV- as it switched after being severely mauled (but before it's capital was taken.

Let's say they are as follows:

- I -

Will not change sides, can only be conquered.

In WWII, UK, Germany and USA would fit that description.

- II -

Not a very good chance of being turned, but it's a possibility.

In WWII France and Vichy France fit here.

- III -

Will switch sides if defeated militarily and it's own soil is invaded -- a specific loss of major cities, say 2, without the capital having been taken.

Italy fits here.

- IV -

Will change sides if the situation is perceived as severe -- such as direct contact broken with it's major allies and enemy @overwhelming strength at it's borders.

In WWII Finland, Romania and Hungary would fit here.

- V -

As per Lars suggestion, this is a country that will switch sides if a neighboring nation it has close ties to is invaded by it's own side.

In WWII Yugoslavia would fit into this category. It was virtually part of the Axis till Italy invaded Greece. Greece would also fit into this category. It too was gravitating toward the Axis when it was invaded by the Italians. We can assume it would have fought the Axis if Yugoslavia had been invaded instead (the two countries were ruled by related families, cousins).

-- The scenario editor would use type I as the default and players can alter nations from there according to the game they're planning.

[SeaMonkey]

JJ,...and the USSR...where does it go?

[JerseyJohn]

Good point SeaMonkey.

I think -II- would be a good bet if the map isn't global.

If we're talking about a global game I think there would need to be a provision where European Russia would be conquered and Asiatic Russia would become neutral without the country actually changing sides.

If - II - were taken for European Russia, it would have the benefit to the Germans of not having to occupy it. While not all of European Russia's resources would be funnelled to Germany, it would receive a large percentage.

Also, some parts of European Russia would have to be directly occupied by Germany, such as a path from Poland through the Ukraine, to conform to Hitler's concept of a Greater Germania where retired German soldiers would be manor lords over slavic workers -- his idea of what Ancient Rome did in Gaul and the Balkans and what the Normans did in conquered Saxon England.

But overall, I think it would be safer, and easier on Hubert, to consider the USSR as a type - I - that would have to conquered.

-- This can be simulated in a world map game by assigning a second Soviet/Russian capital far east of the Urals and, if Moscow is taken, the country fights on till the second capital is also take. As is the present setup with Vichy France and the USSR except this second capital would be much, much farther east of the Urals.

-- -- If conquered, Russia should need to be heavily occupied by the Axis. I'd recommend a corps in every major city, coming to about twenty corps in European Russia and, if a global map, about 15 in Asian Russia. Areas not garrisoned would automatically rebel and produce a rebel army with a corps each turn following. If they take either of the fallen capitals, the USSR is back in business!

Regarding this, I'd have the occupation forces city based and would throw out the forest, swamp and mountain idea. Having a corps in a city means there are occupation troops distributed in all of the surrounding countryside extending to the next city.

The Germans were planning on an occupying force in the USSR of 56 divisions. If there are twenty-five major cities that would come to between 50 and 75 divisions (2 or 3 per SC corps).

[ May 11, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wake]

What the hell are you talking about ?

France was not and is not a facist country.

Moreover, anti-german feelings were very strong in France during XIXth and XXth century.

Germany was considered as the "natural enemy".

Even the differents between the France and UK (mers el kebir ...), even the heavy bombings didn't changed the country's mind.

And this despite the fact that propaganda was very strong and pictured the allies as murderers.

France is not a facist country, this whatif is insane.

[JerseyJohn]

Wake,

And what the hell are you talking about?

We're talking -- in this thread -- about the chance that a country will switch to the other side after either being defeated, invaded or other factor.

We haven't been talking about France specifically and while we're at it, "Who the hell" are you even talking to?

-- I suspect you made the wrong turn and meant to put that rant-like offering in the thread about France becoming a neutral instead of this one.

Regardless of where it's supposed to go, we don't really don't something antagonistic.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Wake:

What the hell are you talking about ?

France was not and is not a facist country.

Moreover, anti-german feelings were very strong in France during XIXth and XXth century.

Germany was considered as the "natural enemy".

Even the differents between the France and UK (mers el kebir ...), even the heavy bombings didn't changed the country's mind.

And this despite the fact that propaganda was very strong and pictured the allies as murderers.

France is not a facist country, this whatif is insane.

Go see the France thread. We've been through this already.

Got bad news for you though. Fascism was popular to a greater and lesser extent all across Europe. It didn't have the bad name it does today.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

JerseyJohn,

1. I think you meant the Japanese financed the Nationalists not the Communists.

2. Original Topic

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Three Categories of Countries.

I) Will never switch sides, must be defeated and can only be conquered.

II) Remote possibility of switching sides after being successfully invaded.

III) Will probably switch sides after being successfully invaded.

Do you mean that a pop-up box will appear that gives the conquering/invading nation a choice between plundering the nation and accepting it as an ally at the end of its turn?

Case 1: Zero% Popup Option Appears

Case 2: % Popup Option Appears

Case 3: 100% Popup Option Appears

Example: Napolean Takes Berlin and a Popup box appears saying:

Category 3: 100% Popup

"The <German King> has lost the war and proposes an alliance with France. Do we accept his proposal or plunder the country?" </font>

[Edwin P.]

Just to make it a little more devilish, throw in a random modifier that the computer ignores your choice.

Politics doesn't always work neatly.

Agreed.

[JerseyJohn]

I also agree. Good idea, Lars.

It would be similar to what happened in Yugoslavia 1941, where the government signed an Axis treaty and was almost immediately overthrown! Contrary to popular belief, they didn't join the Allies, only cancelled their agreement with the Germans. Hitler treated that as an act of war.

So I think the historical basis for that point is solid.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Interesting point about Fascism.

In todays world, the differences between Nazism and Fascism have blurred, and generally speaking, people consider them the same.

Back in the 30's, they were distinctly different ideas.

On-Topic...

The random modifier is a good idea, since it would help bring historical uncertainty and tension into the process.

[Curry]

JJ - interesting thread. I will have to give it some thought as to which country goes where. Times are very different from then for sure.

I especially like your category of three simple categories. Good reading.

[SeaMonkey]

Alright, I like the random modifier per Lars, but I think it should be in ratio with the amount of diplomatic chits employed.

If a player wished to reduce the random opportunity of the event, he should have the ability to bring it to a low percentage with a profusion of diplomatic chit investment, still a small % that it will not come to pass. His opponent should be able to effect the random modifier also with his unknown "FoW" chit allocation. Shouldn't be to difficult to code.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks Curry.

What I was thinking of, beyond the basic WWII scenarios, is to have those three (or whatever number) of options in the scenario editor so we can assign countries in home made scenarios.