Exact effect of experience ?

[TaoJah]

I started my first HvH game and of course the opponents doesn't have a experience bonus of 2 stars, like the AI always has.

So, I started thinking : what EXACTLY is the effect of those experience medals ?

The formula in the manual states this.

Multiplier = Readiness / 100.

Attacker Losses =

Defender Multiplier * (Defend Type Value + Defender Experience / 3) -

Attacker Multiplier * Attacker Experience / 3

That's odd for attackers without any Experience, isn't it ? That means that the attacker's readiness doesn't do anything at all without experience ?

Defender Losses =

Attacker Multiplier * (Attack Type Value + Attacker Experience / 3) -

(Defender Multiplier * (Defender Experience / 3 + Defender Entrenchment + Defense Bonuses))

That's also odd, because that means that in open terrain without entrenchement, the defender's readiness doesn't play any role for the defender's losses except when the defender has experience...

[Terif]

Attacker Losses:

Experience means that a defenders experience increases the losses of any attacker by 1/3 of the experience multiplied with the readiness of the defender

and experience of the attacker reduces these losses also by 1/3 of his experience multiplied with the readiness of the attacker.

Defender Losses:

The same, only the other way around...damage increase by 1/3 * Attacker Experience * readiness, reduction by 1/3 * Defender Experience * readiness

This means that experience only matters a bit if the according units are in good shape/readiness since it is multiplied with the readiness. But even if the units would be at 100% readiness, each medal of experience increases/decreases damage only by 0.33 points ! But in (soft)ground warfare attack/defence values are usually between 4-6 (tanks even higher).

In consequence, experience doesn´t really matter in ground warfare, it is simply a more or less neglectable effect.

Another story are air units - they usually have a high readiness and combat values are with only 2 pretty low and ground units have only a defence of 1, so here experience can make a huge difference and leads very fast to expected losses of 0 for the AF and losses of 2-3 when attacking ground units.

Concerning your observations:

- yes, attackers can only reduce their damage if they have collected exerience, otherwise they take full damage

- defenders on the other side can reduce their losses not only by experience (makes no real difference, defenders usually have none or nearly none anyway), but much more effective by choosing the right terrain for defence (=Defense Bonuses) and entrenching there

[TaoJah]

Hmmm, so I guess my whole "take Poland and France slow to get more experience" is a waste of time, except for air units.

I do like to overstrength units, but usually the extra strength only lasts one turn.

So I guess experience isn't that useful overal for ground units.

[arado234]

I had one infantry army at a 15 with full tech.Man was he deadly.So if you can get them that high they are pretty well unbeatable with proper support.

[BioWizard]

Good to hear TaoJah that you finally want to test your skills against a worthy opponent! May I suggest that you post your ICQ number in the appropriate sticky of this forum? I really think it is the easiest and fastest way to find opponents!

I of course invite all other SC2 players to do the same !

[Desert Dave]

In consequence, experience doesn´t really matter in ground warfare, it is simply a more or less neglectable effect.

Sure it does Terif,

You better betcha it do indeed.

First,

I wouldn't classify basic experiential effects

As merely... negligable.

More like - variable-valuable.

Second,

You have a double benefit.

IE,

The first and basic improvement,

Und denn,

The added ability to "over-strength" the unit.

Surely you've played games where?

A size "14" or "15" Army,

Or Tank Group,

Or Corps,

Or Air Fleet,

Will deal out some mighty devastating mayhem,

All the while taking NO - none,

I mean to say... zero

Hits/damage themselves? :eek:

Yep,

More pronounced problem in SOLO games

Since the AI hasn't become

Proficient ENOUGH... as of yet,

So to KNOW it is a grand stand,

First,

Last or - in honor of the Bugle Band,

To UPGRADE units during those inactive

Spells, as

In winter months most especially.

Therefore,

Your remark that "experience" per se,

Doesn't MATTER,

In ground combat,

Ist kleine verfurhen, Ya?

____________________

And a happy!

Prosperous!

Fun-filled!

And plain old Cool Cat

New Year's!

To all! :cool:

[ December 31, 2006, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Terif]

For AI games you may be right - but not in HvsH games :

For once, I have so far never seen or owned in several hundred games a ground unit with more than str 12 ! And they usually will not survive the first year of Barbarossa too...

And this has a reason, since in HvsH everyone will research Infantry Weapons and Anti-Tank. Usually at least IW are at Lv 3 till Barbarossa or shortly after and that means: one battle and even if it survives, all your hard earned exerience is gone after reinforcing .

Side note: elite reinforcements costs twice as much than the normal version and so it is doubtable if it is really worth the additional costs as in Russia you don´t see much difference except for the first turn when they start fresh and with full supply. After the first real battle it will be lost in any case.

At least I personally don´t care about experience for ground units - only for air units it really matters for me - but that´s up to everyone himself, lastly elite units are also a prestige object that you can be proud of (even if they have no real additonal use in combat ).

[Desert Dave]

For once, I have so far never seen or owned in several hundred games a ground unit with more than str 12 !

I find this - ummm, somewhat hard to imagine.

Then again,

Your VERACITY has NEVER,

Since December 2002, been in doubt,

So,

I take you at yer word.

At least I personally don´t care about experience for ground units...

Your MAGNIFICENT playing record

Speaks a language all it's own.

Not German,

Not English (... which is, a'times,

even BETTER than mine! )

Nor Romance langauge

Nor Sanskrit or what is writ

By that perpetually moving finger.

Thus,

You know what's what,

I am merely... Acolyte

At some mythic altar,

Is how we MIGHT phrase it.

only for air units it really matters for me

Yep,

And that is become... problematical.

Just - too much Air experience earned

Too fast.

Maybe trimmed... by half? :confused:

...lastly elite units are also a prestige object that you can be proud of (even if they have no real additonal use in combat ).

You DO know America,

And Americans,

"Ami's" as I heard us termed

Then I lived in your exceptionally

Pristine clean and pretty green!

And for - Millenia-storied Land,

Circa 1960-63 it was. :cool:

Yep, we seem to prefer... BIG.

BIGGER.

BIGGEST!!

Oft utterly disregading the old,

Good as Gold... shibboleth:

"A LITTLE

Goes a l-o-o-nn-g ways!"

[TaoJah]

It's sure that an overstrength unit is not the game winning feature.

But it's more then a "one time advantage that is lost after the first battle"

The reason is not just the small extra punch in battle that comes from being 1 point stronger, but also the big effect that that point has on morale morale. Here you can see two units that take one loss every turn, one that starts at 10 and another at 11 (both always with 8 supply).

IMHO the effect of starting at 11 instead of 10 is certainly worth the cost.

Note that morale and supply are calculated twice per turn, as Hubert Cater said.

. . . . . . Old Morale Strength Supply New morale

Start turn 1 . 100 . . 10 . . . 8 . . . 95

End turn 1 . . 95 . . 9 . . . 8 . . . 85,5

Start turn 2 . 85 . . 9 . . . 8 . . . 81,8235

End turn 2 . . 81 . . 8 . . . 8 . . . 73,56415409

Start turn 3 . 73 . . 8 . . . 8 . . . 69,78406558

End turn 3 . . 69 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . 62,19823106

Start turn 4 . 62 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . 58,26796301

End turn 4 . . 58 . . 6 . . . 8 . . . 51,29866142

. . . . . . Old Morale Strength Supply New morale

Start turn 1 . 100 . . 11 . . . 8 . . . 103

End turn 1 . . 103 . . 10 . . . 8 . . . 95,996

Start turn 2 . 95 . . 10 . . . 8 . . . 93,5024079

End turn 2 . . 93 . . 9 . . . 8 . . . 84,99233792

Start turn 3 . 84 . . 9 . . . 8 . . . 81,59655171

End turn 3 . . 81 . . 8 . . . 8 . . . 73,47122337

Start turn 4 . 73 . . 8 . . . 8 . . . 69,7368765

End turn 4 . . 69 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . 62,17591655

[ December 31, 2006, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: TaoJah ]

[Terif]

That´s the theory if no bad enemy would exist... - unfortunately there will be battles in SC2 and with the high attack values experience doesn´t matter:

Even your high strength unit will suffer major damage in Russia - usually with 2 army attacks your high strength unit will be dead, experience or no experience - and if necessary a corps to finish it off. Even if it is only attacked once, it will loose most of its experience collected in the previous wars against helpless minor countries.

P.S.: A large part of the readiness (and readiness is what matters in battle) comes from HQ command where the combat units experience has no influence.

[Desert Dave]

That´s the theory if no bad enemy would exist...

Terif, Terif, Terif,

There are all kinds! Of "bad enemies"

When you play HvsH.

I give you that, and many are the ones

Who tell us all about those most incredible

Adventures and "a-historical" exploits, yea,

I am happy for them.

Really-truly.

However... since the VAST majority

Of casual, and even - dedicated gamers

Play it out SOLO

(... as with board-gaming of old, when

you could hardly ever find someone

to "stick it out" over the course

of a lenghty game, other than the "clubs,"

as I did @ University way back when... :cool: )

You wouldn't want, IMHO, to make a game,

And,

Tailor and tweak a game,

To satisfy - merely a hand-full of players.

What we got?

10-20, perhaps even 30?

SC Cats that ONLY play HvsH?

Who are most vociferous about what

THEY want, and prefer.

How about that 90 % ++

Who also would like a great

Gaming experience?

Who,

Do NOT, insofar as I can tell, and

Especially of late,

Make their wishes known, possibly,

Intimidated?

By those are voluble vociferous,

As priorly mentioned.

Well,

Experience does make it difficult,

Though NOT impossible - given

The free-form Editor capabilites,

To "balance" the game, or the "mods."

Ask Kuniworth... though we don't have to

As he's already made his frustration known.

I too have had some difficulties

In creating a mod that will "nullify"

That tremendous advantage of Axis experience.

Particularly with Air Fleets,

As it was in SC-1.

Surely,

We NEED a "bad enemy" for an AI,

And, for both sides, yes?

Introducing, and MOSTLY improving a game,

ANY game,

To satisfy those realtive

FEW who only play HvsH,

Is NEVER enough, nope, not by a long shot.

IMHO.

And so... the Quest - the tilting

At ephemeral Windmills,

There upon the sagging-staggering steed,

Continues.

Who knows?

Perhaps one fine blue-bird warbling day,

We can say... NOW

Here is a game that those silent 90 % ++

Can ALSO enjoy.

Well,

Enough of all that,

I've said my piece,

Time to give it a rest.

NOBODY, as I have lived it out

The hard-scrabble way,

Is... the BEST.

At playing the game,

Or,

Equally important,

IMPROVING the game.

EVERYBODY has good ideas,

Not just the HvsH'ers,

And maybe?

We'll finally hear some? :cool:

[TaoJah]

I can not say that I understood everything you said, DD, but if you said that the development-attention of the game is a bit too much tweaked towards HvH and modding lately, then I agree.

If that's not what you said : sorry

The AI is better at defending then at attacking (as all AIs are) but the Allied AI has still some learning to do, even in the defending phase.

Taking Norway.

Or defending Brest.

Defending against an early Sealion.

A better script for the engineer in Africa.

...

But that's all foreplay : the defence in Russia should be better.

- The engineer can be put to better use then dig 8 fortifications around Moscow.

- A quicker upgrade to Infantry level 3 is nice too (I got the impression that he only upgrades one point at a time).

- Defending Stalingrad much better, instead of keeping 5-6 units around unimportant cities.

- A better use of airplanes (I can ALWYAS kill one plane in the first turn of Barbarossa).

And some things that can be improved in all phases :

- First shoot, then move.

- Focus on killing a few units instead of attacking alot units.

There are very few bugs left in the game and in HvH game the odds seems to be balanced, so I guess the full attention can go to AI tweaking now !

[Desert Dave]

I can not say that I understood everything you said, DD, but if you said that the development-attention of the game is a bit too much tweaked towards HvH and modding lately, then I agree.

If that's not what you said : sorry

You got the gist of it TJ,

And your AI suggestions are appreciated. :cool:

It's kinda like this... I got this friend,

Taciturn and a "loner" he is, who

Rebuilds and customizes

Old, worn-down VW Kamper Wagens,

Any year, any make, any condition.

He is an artisan.

A VERY particular and dedicated Craftsman.

Only the very best parts,

Only a faithful (... historical) adherence

To the original design.

He ONLY needs to sell one or two of these

Each year,

@ $30,000 - 40 thou - profit per, and!

Man O Man, 'e's living the dream

Skipping down Mainstreet,

Right next door to... the Simpsons.

IF you are going to market

Smaller items,

Say, @ $30-40 per,

You sure do gotta appeal, yea,

You gotta listen to a greater,

I say again,

A MUCH larger audience

Than some small Cadre of 20 or so,

No matter how earnest and articulate.

Hubert,

(... with some apt help from Edwin P)

HAS indeed made the AI much, much better.

Simply compare first version

To the last.

And so, Yippee!

On a cool & brisk following-breeze

We rare! To go! :cool: