Research and intelligence

[triniemi]

Let's assume that my heavy tank level is 0 and my enemy has it in level 1.

a) What's the % of succeending to improve it with 1 chit invested.

What is the % with 2 chits invested?

c) How does my own or my enemy's intelligence level change these?

[Terif]

Assuming Intel levels are equal:

a) 5% base chance + 1% catch-up chance = 6%

2x6% = 12% chance

Each Intel level difference between your nation and the enemy nation that has heavy tank lv 1 increases/decreases your catch-up chance by 1%/chit (can´t fall below 0). It has no influence on your base chance, that´s why researching intelligence is usually a waste of mpps as you have more from investing into the tech you want to have directly .

[triniemi]

Ok, thanks for quick reply.

[Edwin P.]

I can understand why intel only affects your catch-up bonus, as you would not steal inferior technology.

But shouldn't intel do something more?

For me it does not feel like intel of WWII that supplied partisan units (France, Greece, Norway and Yugoslavia for example), uncovered enemy spies, sabotaged enemy diplomatic efforts, obtained early warnings of incoming air attacks, and monitored enemy communications (Ultra).

[ April 25, 2007, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Bromley]

The real kick in the nads is that Intel doesn't help if your allies are ahead of you. Not that it necessarily logically should, but there's no other game mechanism to simulate an allied tech trickle-down effect.

I know there's the argument that Germany didn't really share, but it seems unlikely to me that Il Duce would be getting more help from US & Russian scientists than from German ones.

[arado234]

I dont see how you could put ultra into the game except that the allies could somehow on thier turn only turn off the fog of war.Also one of the big reasons why ultra was so succesful was that the germans believed thier own propaganda when the said enigma was unbreakable.It also didnt help that canaris(head of the abwher)and alot of his staff were huge anti nazis.There were plenty of incidents during the war that should have raised red flags about enigmas security.From what ive read gestapo codes were never broken.They trusted nothing.

[Liam]

The Russians did a very good job at cracking German Intelligence. They also did well at cracking British Intelligence earlier on in the century..

Some of the things that the enemy might recieve via intelligence wouldn't be for example a entire Map without FOW. Individual commanders and army groups ran on their own orders for various nations. There is no way to know precisely what was reported to the High Command. Thing how Rebellious von Bock was and it gives you an idea... Plus decisions are made in the field which might take a lot longer to be made at the Command Center!

You might get an idea of an enemy buildup, by seeing several of his FOW Units. Or less... This may give you an idea of his next Plan of Attack!

Intel Tech could represent the Various Intricate SpyRings and Spies operating along with the technology used for overflights by High Flying Recon, offshore Recon, etc... etc... etc... It's neverending... It could be faulty and it could be true, depending on various factors tied into Intel! Intel 5 say gives you a good chance at detecting % of FOW units within 5 Tiles of your FrontLine Units. Representing a huge hole in the enemy Intel which cannot Counter at Intel1, forcing people to take it seriously. Use it perhaps more often rather than ignore it and also have fun with it.. Technology was one of the few things Intel Gained!

At Sea, in the air and on land Intelligence was a huge factor influencing World War II. It may have saved tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives For the British. At Sea in the Air for them, very very valuable. For the Russians, gave them the edge at Kursk. For the Germans, did them in, not reinforcing Normandy and driving the Allies back into the Sea. A Catastrophe that may have pushed the West to Sign a Treaty and the East as well! So manny possibilities, even befitting for a Strategic Game. hard to incorporate though

[Edwin P.]

Perhaps, each level of Intel gives you a 5% per turn to spot the location of each enemy HQ or naval vessel.

Example: Intel Level 2

Enemy HQ 1 - 10% to spot

Enemy HQ 2 - 10% to spot

Ship 1 - 10% per turn to spot

Ship 2 - 10% per turn to spot

Thus in this case with Intel level 1 you may spot the location of 0, 1 or 2 HQ units each turn. Interpreted properly this may tell you the intentions of your enemy.

At Intel level 5 you would have a 25% per turn to spot each enemy naval ship.

[ April 27, 2007, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Liam]

Plus Counter Tech, each level of opponent Intel Tech, counters spotting!

Also dummy units misleading a player. Done in East Anglia and Egypt during WW2.

This would make Intel a fearsome tech indeed, if a large percentage of the time you had a decent chance of spotting an attack before it happens. Just like Strategic Bombers, U-Boat Raiders, just as big a Service as I mentioned Spies and Intelligence gathering.

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Perhaps, each level of Intel gives you a 5% per turn to spot the location of each enemy HQ or naval vessel.

Example: Intel Level 2

Enemy HQ 1 - 10% to spot

Enemy HQ 2 - 10% to spot

Ship 1 - 10% per turn to spot

Ship 2 - 10% per turn to spot

Thus in this case with Intel level 1 you may spot the location of 0, 1 or 2 HQ units each turn. Interpreted properly this may tell you the intentions of your enemy.

At Intel level 5 you would have a 25% per turn to spot each enemy naval ship.

[TaoJah]

What is the exact % in the following ?

I got intelligence 4 and tank 0.

Opponent has intelligence 0 and tank 1.

I buy 3 chits in tank.

Do I get 3*5 + 1 + 4 = 17 %

Or do I get 3 * (5+1+4) = 30 %

In other words : does the number of chits multiplies the catch-up bonus and the intelligence bonus, or just the base bonus ?

[Edwin P.]

Just the base bonus a believe.

In this case this is a 4/16 = 25% increase in your base chance to achieve a higher tech level.

[ April 28, 2007, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Bromley]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

In other words : does the number of chits multiplies the catch-up bonus and the intelligence bonus, or just the base bonus ?

I'm going to go the other way from Edwin based on what I think Terif said earlier:

a) 5% base chance + 1% catch-up chance = 6%

So that 6% includes the catch up. Then,

2x6% = 12% chance

You multiply the 6% by the number of chits you have in whatever tech it is (i.e. 2 here). Then,

Each Intel level difference between your nation and the enemy nation that has heavy tank lv 1 increases/decreases your catch-up chance by 1%/chit (can´t fall below 0)

So each level of positive difference increases the catch up, which as we've seen above is summed with the base before multiplying by the number of chits invested.

So I'd say you get the 30% [ 3 * (5+1+4) ].

[Terif]

Yes, the chance is always per chit - so in your example chance would be:

3 chits * (5% base chance + 5% catch-up chance because of 4 intel levels difference) = 3 * 10% = 30%.

I.e. intel lv 4 would increase your chance to get HT1 from 15% to 30% each turn in your example.

But first you had to research Intel lv4 which needs time (if it happens at all as nobody is helping via catch-up and to get it you have only 2% chance/chit) and means instead of those 4 breakthroughs you could already have researched something useful .

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Terif:

But first you had to research Intel lv4 which needs time

Yes, that's the tricky part, isn't it

But stil... With the US and USSR, you can get to -say- Intel 3 early on, which will give you 3% bonus per chit for your infantry and plane research (since the Germans will go to 3/3/1 infantry and 3/3 planes anyway).

If you buy 3 chits in IW, 3 in AT and 1 in mobilisation, that's a 21% bonus. Plus any bonusses for Production research you might get.

Perhaps it's worth with the US, since they don't start their research early anyway. With the USSR I doubt it, but perhaps it works. With the Germans and UK probably not.