Canada, Low tech defense

[Scout55]

Been playing the game non-stop with 2 friends, Email, TCPip, hotseat, and solo.

Lots of fun, Great for "alternate" paths to victory and defeat.

but i have 1 sour note...

Canada!

Why cant i raise the tech level of the Grand forces of Canada? Those Air, Sea and Land units cry for tech, but never see it, except on the recieving end.

While the Brits and Yanks, race forward in trucks and jeeps, the Canadians trudge along at road march speed.

1939 or 1945 the Canadians are locked in the past.

No Piats, No SpitfireXV's, No Lancasters, No Shermans, No 75mm AT guns. No Hedgehog.

Just old 1939 junk.

For now, all my canadians do is engage in Blackmarket activities while in garrison, and hope they dont face Axis super weapons.

Sad, but thats what has become of my canadians.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Scout55:

For now, all my canadians do is engage in Blackmarket activities while in garrison, and hope they dont face Axis super weapons.

Sounds historical to me for 1939 to 1943, 1944 for most of them. See Stacey, C.P. "History of the Canadian Army" (Queen's Printer, 1948).

[Mr.Dozer]

yeah I think Canada should have more. I mean the minors in this game suck in comparison to sc1 were minors were fillers but you could use them on the Front. Now they just sit back and watch.

I think minors should be cheaper or something because I want my Canadians in.

I believe they were responsible for 1 of the 5 beaches (juno). Also yes I know their werent Tons but there was 1.1 million.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mr.Dozer:

yeah I think Canada should have more. I mean the minors in this game suck in comparison to sc1 were minors were fillers but you could use them on the Front. Now they just sit back and watch.

I think minors should be cheaper or something because I want my Canadians in.

I believe they were responsible for 1 of the 5 beaches (juno). Also yes I know their werent Tons but there was 1.1 million.

There were 1 million servicemen and women in all the services for the 6 years of war, but peak strength in Europe was probably around 500,000. Large numbers of Canadian service personnel were draftees, and tens of thousands of troops (draftees and volunteers both) never left Canada. I imagine that 1 million figure also includes part-time reservists, of which there were hundreds of units in Canada parading one night a week and on weekends. May also include the Veteran's Guard of Canada, who were aged First World War veterans used to guard prisoners, and the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers, another group raised solely for home defence.

[Mr.Dozer]

i guess so im not sure since i was just looking on Wilkipedia and found that. Was to late to go into better detail.

[Liam]

One advantage of leaving the Canucks independant of the Brits is that when the English surrender any real estate taken by the Canadians stays Allied. Hard to argue giving them tech when the Finns and Spanish don't get any from Germany or Italy, though I'm certian they were using US and Brit equipment in the end

add up Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and any other nation convinced to join along with Finland... that's how many million soldiers in service, I'd prefer no minor units and just boost MPPs so I can buy more German ones.. or the option at least... perhaps that would be better for the UK.. the option to enlist Cheaper Units?

[Retributar]

Past 'Canadian' topic discussion!:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000348;p=2

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000348;p=1

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000348;p=3

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=001429

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=001523#000008

[Canuck_para]

I think Canada (and all Commonwealth countries) should have the same tech level as the UK. They used the same eqpt. In Canada's case most vehs and wpns were produced in Canada and shared with other countries. This is why they should be different from other minors who I feel did not have the same industrial ability. I do think that Axis minors should get a tech level at 2 less than the Germans. This could represent the hand me downs that Germany gave to it's allies. If Germany is level 3 IW then the minors should be lvl 1. Same with AT.

I am not sure how much any minors used eqpt from their major sponsors besides infantry wpns. Did Germany lend any tanks or did they need them all? What about aircraft? I know the Allies produced tanks that were shared with all the Commonwealth and Free Forces.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Canuck_para:

[QB] I think Canada (and all Commonwealth countries) should have the same tech level as the UK. They used the same eqpt. In Canada's case most vehs and wpns were produced in Canada and shared with other countries. This is why they should be different from other minors who I feel did not have the same industrial ability.

This isn't entirely true; Canada produced the Ram tank on its own, which turned out to be a dud and was stripped down for use as an APC. The Shermans Canada used were all American-built, ditto the Stuart tanks in the light tank troops of armoured regiments and recce units. We also used American built Browning machine guns in the tanks, British built helmets for D-Day (the Mk III "invasion" helmet). And our soldiers in Italy wore British clothing exclusively.

However, you are correct in that we did supply items to other nations - our Valentine tanks went to the Russians, for example, and we made 9mm pistols for China...I think a lot of our exports were castoffs though - stuff to the USSR wasn't up to standard, ie the Valentine tank. You are right that the Germans gave hand me downs away, but what do you call the US-built Lee and Grant tanks the Russians were using in 1943?

[SeaMonkey]

According to my reference 92,000 Canadians served in Italy and 215,000 in NW Europe at peak deployment. How many SC2 units is that?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

According to my reference 92,000 Canadians served in Italy and 215,000 in NW Europe at peak deployment. How many SC2 units is that?

Don't know how it translates to SC2 but numbers are misleading. We had two corps headquarters and 5 divisions in the field (plus 2 independent armoured brigades, the equivalent of 2 parachute battalions, and an APC regiment). We loaned out 600 officers to the British Army as we had a surplus of junior officers.

But, these numbers can be misleading - if we had kept our divisions together, we would have needed only one corps headquarters, not two (plus the attendant "corps units" including artillery, anti-aircraft and logistics units). There were also inefficiencies in the training due to an ignorance of what the casualty toll in Normandy would be (this was recently discussed at length in the General Forum). An accurate picture of Canadian capabilities isn't necessarily drawn from the raw numbers. We also had many active units in Canada - three divisions worth at their peak. E.L.M. Burns wrote in "Manpower in the Canadian Army" after the war that had Canada not deployed a corps headquarters to Italy, and did away with things like No. 1 Tobacco Depot in the UK (where dozens of even hundreds of soldiers were employed sorting cigarettes sent from Canada for distribution to the troops), the reinforcement problems that cropped up after the Scheldt need not have occurred.

Much also depends on how the Canadians are employed - in NW Europe and Italy, Canada relied heavily on British and US Line of Communication troops. If forced to bear more of that burden, it would follow that fewer combat troops would be available.

If one erased the threat from Japan and tightened up some of the inefficiencies, Canada might conceivably have squeezed another division or two into action, depending on how long that fighting went.

[SeaMonkey]

OK Michael, so what do you say, perhaps two full strength corps, upgradeable to Western Allies' tech level and an HQ?

[Canuck_para]

I think based on Michael's figures Canada should have 1 corp, 1 army and 1 tank unit plus an HQ as a minimum. All at full strength.

[SeaMonkey]

Actually Canuck you may be closer than my estimate. After all there was the 1st Canadian Army(5 Canadian div.), which included the 1st Polish Armored and the UK 49th arranged in two corps with those two Canadian armored brigades(1st & 2nd) attached.

Of course Monty was the commander of the army group(21st) and this was in late 44. So how about a scripted reinforcement schedule for the Canadian contigent?

An army and a tank group, no corps, no HQ, arriving early, middle 44.

3,2,2 for the army, level 2(3?) HT for the armored group.

[Cap]

Not only was Canada a significant contributor to the allied military effort, but also a huge manufacturing and resource element. To even consider us in the same vien as "Hungary, South Africa etc" is unfactual and insulting.

Hubert, you should know better!

[SeaMonkey]

Still all of this is a mute point, inconsequential to the Allied effort if they should lose Great Britain.

Without some residue from the RN after a successful Sealion there is little opportunity for the Canadians and Americans to get back on the Continent. Competing with the combined Axis navy, even after Medikaze, is pretty useless with the US navy alone.

With only the Russians for an advisary it is "Game over" in 1.02. Which dictates the UK to a full commitment in one of two places with any chance at survival, given a knowledgeable Axis opponent. Choreographed Allies!

Enter....Blashy's mod and 1.03.

[Liam]

Absolutely! Canada and the US Navy will not save the Day if the Brits fall! The US Fleet needs to be transfered from the Pacific in say 1944 or 1945 after the defeat of the Japanese Navy in Full, 4-5 Aircraft Carriers, dozens of Battleships and Cruisers, several heavy bombers with an insane Range, perhaps operating out of Iceland? All the Americans would need in the Pacific is Subs

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

Still all of this is a mute point, inconsequential to the Allied effort if they should lose Great Britain.

Without some residue from the RN after a successful Sealion there is little opportunity for the Canadians and Americans to get back on the Continent. Competing with the combined Axis navy, even after Medikaze, is pretty useless with the US navy alone.

With only the Russians for an advisary it is "Game over" in 1.02. Which dictates the UK to a full commitment in one of two places with any chance at survival, given a knowledgeable Axis opponent. Choreographed Allies!

Enter....Blashy's mod and 1.03.