Thomas Davie Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 In case anyone cares (hell, even if they don't), I'd been following CM since it was announced as an Avalon Hill affiliation back in 97, and then never bothered buying the game since some aspect of it's 3d implmentation always made me violently ill. Wouldn't matter if I played it on a 15 inch, 17 inch or bigger monitor, the end result was always the same....SPLAT! So, periodically I would download the demo and find the same results, consequently forgetting about the game for another 5 or 6 months. Anyways, half a year ago, I bought another computer with an 18" lcd monitor, but never tried CM on it for some reason. About a month ago, I copied the demo over to my laptop and tried it on there. Hmmmmm....this doesn't make me sick. So I fired it up on my comp w/flat panel. Same result; not sick. So I quickly tried the demo after switching in a CRT monitor. Instant nausea. Who knows why....shrug. So I found a copy of CM at a local EB Game here in my city and bought/installed it on my comp with the lcd. No sickness. YAY! AFter over 3 years I CAN PLAY this. Now, a request for help. I'm familar with the game, having read these boards fairly frequently and some fan sites. What's the best way to get into this game as quick as possible. The easy way is..... and the hard way is.... I'm open to suggestions, and any advice. thanks Tom (as an aside, I was dealing with a 19 inch CRT monitor, 0.26 dot pitch, 100 Hz refresh; the lcd monitor is 0.29 dot pitch unknown refresh rate....so why the hell do I get sick playing 3d games on a CRT monitor, but not on lcd?????) [ September 07, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Davie ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Chapuis Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Well here is what I would do: First, I would only play one or two games against the comp (there is a scenario on the cd that is supposed to simulate a german company practicing an infantry assualt - I would do that against teh AI), and then start pbem or tcp/ip games. It is extremely easy to get a human opponent, and you will learn much better tactics from them. Second, I would find some AARs (there are some pretty good ones here (the 'sunken lane' is probably the best AAR I have ever read - and quite entertaining). Those really helped me learn some tactics. Third, you have to learn the advantages and disadvantages of the different units. This takes time, but it is a must. It was worse for me, becuase before I could even do that, I had to learn what the units were. Fourth, I cant remember where I got them, but there are some really good spreadsheets that break down firepower for inf/guns/art & maybe tanks. Those I really good for helping decide units for QBs - but I cant remember where I got them. Well, that is what I would do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Interesting problem there, the nausea. I have a friend (CMBBer by the way) who cannot play any known FPS for more than a couple of minutes due to this problem. Flight simulators have however never been a problem. The problem is debated, as it apparently makes office employees nauseous too, in companies using a lot of 3D software. I stumbled upon a seminar on a business software fair in Stockholm in 2002 which a cognition studies group from Massachusets was holding on the topic of employee nausea and 3D engines (this was for business use, not games, but end effect is the same I guess). I still have the notes and can share what they presented. First and last thing they said was to check any epilepsy source, and make oneself very very certain about ruling it out before checking nay other sources of the nausea. Their main focus was that it might be due to differences in brain participation in viewing. You know how your brain actually just makes up about 80-85% of all things you think you are seeing? The alternative would be a very slow and arduous life - e.g. when you fear for your life you can experience things to move in slow motion, but its just your brain not making things up anymore, but registering absolutely everything, and rummaging about your memory to find solutions to your current situation. And burning tremendous amounts of energy btw. Anyway, brains are apparently individually very different in this respect, with some simply registering more and making up less than others. Any 3D engine - business or game - relies very heavily on your brain. Not primarily your eyes. It needs your brain to accept it as reality and project memories from your real life into your field of vision, making the environment appear realistic. The engine will use sound, shape and colour triggers to get your brain going, if possible certain movement triggers as well (the major hypnotizer apparently being moving humans with vivid realistic faces, which however is apparently also most difficult to satisfyingly recreate). If it could (and it might one day) it would have used smells as well. The brain acceptance of illusion is momentary and situational. That's why screenshots never really portray the game experience of a 3D engine. Not just games and 3D environments rely on your help btw. Architecture is very much the same really. Problems arise if your brain is not accepting the illusion, for whatever reason. It then stares at things face value, becomes desoriented by the suggestion of reality but absurdity of conditions. You become dizzy and nauseous. Non acceptance apparently comes from a number of sources, which they listed. - It can be as simple as a need for eyesight correction, by glass or lense. It can also be an issue of lighting conditions in the work area, ofindividual distance from monitor, power of monitor etc. - It can be a balance issue. Some people have more acute sense of balance than others, and will become nauseous in a 3D engine just like they would in, say, even a friendlylike roller coaster. These people make excellent acrobats and fencers if trained. - It can be age, as the brain registers slower, causing confusion as a virtual 3D environment requires a lot of attention and brainwork. (Old people are not more stupid, they just have a tremendous amount of association chains to check before getting back to you). - The illusion is an inch too bad for the specific viewer - good enough to provide suggestion of reality, but too bad to recreate it properly. Brain accepts the illusion, but becomes desoriented by it. A good example for many - but not all - might be H&D. This game was very skillfully made in terms of triggers and associations, but used a very restricted field of view, which was also very flat. It made many people nauseous. The later FPS Ghost Recon uses much wider field of view with tremendous depth, enabling a wider audience enjoying it without growing pale and sweating cold. - The viewers brain is too active to accept, refusing to acknowledge the conditions of the illusion. A person using his eyes to 30-35% and his brain filling out only 65-70% of his viewing is in need of a that much more realistic 3D environment in order to be prepared to accept it. Alternatively, it needs an environment that is not suggesting to be reality, but still claiming to be a simulation of it - perhaps the CMBO engine. That's what they said anyway, correct or not. There were people from EA there, and they tended to ask a lot of questions, making me worry about their future projects. On the plus side, if you have a very actively viewing brain, potential learning by visual cognition capacity is very high, even passively. They used as example the annoying kind of people who never seem to get lost even in totally new cities. Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 No idea why 3D games cause nausea, Tom, but I'm glad to see you finally got it work for you with no problems. Always nice to see another old time wargamer here . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 so why the hell do I get sick playing 3d games on a CRT monitor, but not on lcd?????Refresh rate? I seem to remember from when I tried to install a pair of 3D glasses (Revelator, was it? CM ran really cool on those!), that LCD screens run on a *much* lower refresh rate than regular screens. And Thomas - you are... well remembered - glad you now don't have to play CM from top-down view only Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalistdoginchina Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Hi Thomas, Are you the same guy that used to post over at another forum using the alias "Scott" who had the exact same problem as you have described. If yes i remember you well. Good luck with the game, you have missed many years of great PBEM play. CDIC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Viewing a 3D game causes nausea in some people because of the perception of movement in a realistic world while the body itself is not moving. I used to suffer from it too. Especially in FPS. I read an article on this somewhere, but forgot most of the details. In essence, the fluids in your head that cause physical balance are not compensating for movement (your body is still), but the brain belives the body is in motion from what it sees on the screen. Thus, you get the nausea. Make sence? I do not know why it would happen on one monitor type and not the other though. Oh well. Welcome to our insane little community and the game we all love and are protective over. Hey one more post and my total number matches my birth year! 1972 [ September 09, 2003, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 It is indeed me. The same person who used to post on other forums about getting sick when playing 3d games; although I always used to post under my own name, and never under any others. It is nice to be able to play the game, but as you can imagine, I've got a lot of catching up to do. My assumption is going to be that if I can play CMBO, CMBB will also not be a problem for me, nor CMAK as well! Refresh rate? Well, flickering sometimes caused me nausea even if I wasn't playing a 3d game so you might have something there. The lcd screens seem....softer to me, but I know that that is not a very explanative statement. 3d glasses I'm not even going near there! PBEM, ah yes....only been playing Warlords 3:DLR recently, plus some West Front tcp/ip. Once I become comfortable losing in CMBO, I'll quite happily lose to some of you. Tom 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 I sent a copy of the demo to a boyfriend of a co-worker. He had the same reaction - actual nausea. He played IL-2 though, and enjoyed it. Very odd. Like the guy who passed out whenever Mary Hart came on TV? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Mary Hart? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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