Theory: Hitler started Op Barb 45 days late - could have conquered Soviets if on time

[Norse]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

this is not sc 2 related. Locking this.

did you reveal yourself as you forgot to use your administrator account kuni? Eller är ni bara sveeeeeeensk (jag e inte sjuuuuuuuuK)

[japinard]

I don't think all the "what if's" were superfluous.

The Germans did successfully garner some support from people who viewed them as liberators. Stalin had already started killing and imprisoning lots of people, and I bet many would have viewed the Germans as the lesser of 2 evils - had they not had such a torturous reputation for killing anything as fast as Stalin. The people that populate "Russia" prime however are very nationalistic even now through 80 years of oppression - so I think that most classes of the "Soviet Union" wanted out of Stalin's regime, except the true Russian people themselves.

My curiosity is thinking of a scenario (for SC2), where a more refined goal for Germany where they don't go after cities that bother them because of the name will lead to total victory?

I'm still wondering the following: Do you know where the factories were located that churned out the majority of the IL-2 Sturmoviks, T-34's, KV-1's and the IS 1-2's?

[SeaMonkey]

Come on Japinard this is the Nazi regime we're speculating on, run by the supreme racist, Adolf Hitler. Remember what he said in "Mein Kampf" about the Slavs of the East. His rise to power was based on the theology of superior beings, it is unthinkable of his ideology to liberate a "degenerate" ethnic population represented by the Eastern European peoples. They were little more than slaves for the "supreme race" to use in their rise to world domination. This "what if" is what if the Nazis weren't Nazis and hence no WW2.

[japinard]

Well I guess that's a pretty good point Seamonkey. Looking at WWII sans Nazis is no longer WWII, but maybe WWI revisited with better technology...

[SeaMonkey]

Now that sounds like a superlative "what if" (WW1, with better tech). I'll be looking forward to that one, with the Old Guard Prussian High Command. Think in terms of JJ's Brest-Litvosk Aftermath.

[japinard]

[Norse]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

Come on Japinard this is the Nazi regime we're speculating on, run by the supreme racist, Adolf Hitler. Remember what he said in "Mein Kampf" about the Slavs of the East. His rise to power was based on the theology of superior beings, it is unthinkable of his ideology to liberate a "degenerate" ethnic population represented by the Eastern European peoples. They were little more than slaves for the "supreme race" to use in their rise to world domination. This "what if" is what if the Nazis weren't Nazis and hence no WW2.

What continues to fasinate me, is how some people just *know* everything the germans were up to. Of course, without having read a single book on the issue, otherwise they wouldn't make statements like this.

Yes that is right, the german plans for the east is available, not that you would know about it though.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Russia had biggest BDP and fastest industrial development in the world so Hitler was forced to attack USSR. Otherwise Stalin would smash Germany in the pieces in the future.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by DalmatiaPartisan:

Russia had biggest BDP and fastest industrial development in the world so Hitler was forced to attack USSR. Otherwise Stalin would smash Germany in the pieces in the future.

Stalin had NO intention of going to war whatsoever in the near futur.

Hitler could have conquered all of Europe, Middle East all the way to Iran and Africa. Settle down his conquests, build up his defenses and forces and by then both USSR, Nazies and USA would be up for a showdown.

[SeaMonkey]

Dang Norse I thought this was relatively simple, the German plan for the East was "subjugation". What people imply and what they truly do by actions leads to interpretations of their initial plans. I don't "believe" anything I read, and only half of what I see, for all is qualified by subjective perspectives, as you have so admirably admonished. Sure they had a plan, but what was their intent? How did the original plan evolve? Be careful of what "men" say, write....watch what they do. That's my subjective perspective or how is it that you said it...."know".

[Desert Dave]

The SeaMonkey swims,

Arm over arm,

And,

Charmingly,

In Metaphysical waters!

Deep,

But not without

Bismark rusting on the bottom.

Meantime,

Since ALL is... yep, subjective,

And there are no

Absolute "objects" in abound,

I submit,

It's best to listen for

Approximate, approaching sounds.

Like,

SC2-Blitzkrieg! is due!

And, soon! :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

Hmmm! DD it seems we have met there......where the land meets the water......and it is a beautiful place. Come... have a swim...and I will have a walk. :cool:

[Desert Dave]

LOL!

It is the wiser one

Who would heed the evident alchemy.

Water is merely molecules,

Atomic apart.

It's a matter of using the circular shells

As... stepping stones, I would suppose.

[roman uk]

'Come on Japinard this is the Nazi regime we're speculating on, run by the supreme racist, Adolf 'Hitler. Remember what he said in "Mein Kampf" about the Slavs of the East. His rise to power was based on the theology of superior beings, it is unthinkable of his ideology to liberate a "degenerate" ethnic population represented by the Eastern European peoples. They were little more than slaves for the "supreme race" to use in their rise to world domination. This "what if" is what if the Nazis weren't Nazis and hence no WW2.'

In fact the Germans did garner support and were initially greeted as liberators w/ bread and salt. I think most forget how truly evil and despicable the soviets were, first under Lenin, then under Stalin.

do not forget Lenin and trotsky's subjugation of eastern bloc country's, the NKVD, and famines in the early 20s.

Do not forget forced collectivization (one was termed a 'kulak', or rich peasant, a class enemy, for owning one cow. For that crime you were shot and your family was sent to siberia)

Do not forget the forced famines of 1933 killing 8 million Ukrainians in one year while wheat rotted in fields and the borders were held by 'shock' troops. The same year the New York Times won the pulitzer for printing how great the communits were and the famine was a lie created by right wing extremists ('conspiracy')(all the news fit to print), and the same year the US recognized the USSR officially.

Do not forget the forced destruction of christianity: churches, the priest class and the intelligentsia in the 20s and 30s.

It surprises some, but many in the occuppied soviet union welcomed any force capable of overthrowing the Soviets.

[SeaMonkey]

Don't get me wrong, Japinard and roman uk, I acknowledge the fact of the Nazis being initially accepted as a liberator. All I'm saying is the nature of the regime was not conducive to taking advantage of that fact. Could it have been? Yes, anything is possible and let's say hypothetically it happened, then what? I find it somewhat outlandish that the millions of people in the Soviet Union would have been, before being conquered, duped into believing the new guys weren't as bad as the old guys. But that's my opinion and you know what they're worth. I'll cop out of here with letting history be my witness. My apologies Japinard, perhaps it is a viable "what if", I'm just adamant about the outcome.

[SeaMonkey]

I hear it DD,

It's a matter of using the circular shells

As... stepping stones, I would suppose.

unless of course you can swim, for the "dark matter" encompasses an additional dimension.