Diplomatic options for Poland?

[vveedd]

In real history there was a little chance that Poland joined anti-kominterna pact with Germany and Italy against USSR. In this case Poland would have been German minor ally. Will be that or any other diplomatic options for Poland in SC2?

[pzgndr]

Interesting question. I doubt that the default historical campaign will be different. In other words, expect the game to start with Germany at war with Britain, France and Poland.

However, it WILL be possible to experiment with the new Editor and create alternative history campaigns. The one limitation in the Editor is that a war condition has to exist between two nations. So at minimum, let's say Germany and Britain start at war with each other prior to invasion of Poland, eg spring 1939 following German invasion of Czeckoslovakia. Poland and France are neutral. Now what? Germany can try diplomacy with Poland, ignore her, or invade. France would be on the edge with high war readiness around 80%, waiting for Poland or Low Countries to be attacked or for diplomatic pressure from Britain. In the meantime, tensions between Britain and Germany would continue to grow until something finally happens. :cool:

Who knows, maybe we'll include something like this in the game anyway?

[ December 06, 2004, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: pzgndr ]

[SeaMonkey]

Bill, let's take another hypothetical war beginning. Will the game be able to simulate a possible UK-France reaction to Germany's re-occupying of the Rhineland in March of 1936 in violation of the Versailles Treaty?

[Leopard_2]

@ SeaMonkey: As at that point Germany was nowhere near ready to wage war with France (or anyone else at that matter), it would have been a short "war" indeed...

[pzgndr]

Leopard_2 has a good point. Also, remember there is a limit on the number of countries and it's maxed out. So any hypothetical campaign with Rhineland as a new "country" for politics and diplomacy effects, plus Austria and Czechoslovakia, would require taking other countries away. One could combine Spain and Portugal without significant effect. But what else would you want to give up? That's tough.

[SeaMonkey]

You guys are of course right, perhaps I used the wrong wording, ie. "war beginning". I was thinking more of a "Days of Decision" type scenario, where the partipants start out with more diplomatic like negotiations, sanctions, tech, and armed doctrine developments, preceeding the "Hot War".

[SeaMonkey]

Hmmm, this could be a very interesting pre-war maneuvering campaign. Austria and Czechoslovakia would have to be created. How many of you are familiar with this add on for "World in Flames" board game? (DoD)

[Edwin P.]

Excellent idea. I would like to see this added, but only after HC has completed programming the current game specs.

[SeaMonkey]

Edwin, who's to say it won't be possible with the current spec'd SC2 editor? Remember we will have scripted "cause and effect" events available.

[Edwin P.]

SeaMonkey, Excellent point. I was just thinking about the standard scenario and having it start in say 1935 giving both sides time to build there armed forces, armed doctrine developments, the maginot line and use diplomacy as you stated above.

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[JerseyJohn]

During the 1930s Poland made some attempts to form all of the Eastern European and Baltic countries into a defensive league allied with France and possibly England as well to help insure neither Germany nor the USSR would be inclined to invade any of them.

Ironically, the multi-nation defense pact didn't come off because the Balkan nations felt Poland was too friendly with Germany! The Baltic nations put their trust in pure neutrality and Belgium did the same in 1936 when it cancelled it's alliance with France, which was still allied to Czechoslovakia. An alliance that would soon be revealed as totally worthless.

A lot of interesting hypothetical situations being brought forward here, terrific thread all around.

[Victor Reijkersz]

PzGrDr,

I would strongly suggest that Hubert raises the number of majors to 10 and minors to i don't know a 100. It should be an easy trick to do so and would open up a lot more options.

[SeaMonkey]

Victor brings up our dilemma of too few minors, perhaps a couple more majors would do for say Japan and China. Now JJ's post can provide us some direction as to what minors will have to be combined, so that we have enough slots to provide for scenario "what ifs". How about two different Balkan coalitions, say Yugo. and Greece as Allied leaning and Rum.,Hung.,and Bulgaria, Axis oriented? What other groupings would be viable?

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey -- that's a good idea.

The ruling families of Greece and Yugoslavia were cousins and their diplomatic moves did go in similar directions.

Hungary was very pro-German from the start, lining up solidly with it's much larger neighbor from the Munich Conference onwards.

Rumania would have gravitated toward Germany and away from the USSR under any circumstances.

Bulgaria had an opportunistic policy. Of all the Axis minors historically, only Bulgaria stipulated that it would not send it's troops out of the Balkans, and it didn't. Bulgarian troops didn't fight in Russia, they played a rold in Yugoslavia and possibly in Thessalonika.

Turkey vaccilated and sometimes appeared to be inclined toward an alliance with Germany. Other times it's diplomats were blunt with the Germans, going to the point of saying they'd made the wrong choice in WWI and would not make the same mistake twice. Late in the war they joined the Allies, but it was more a forced move to help out logistically than an actual pitching in against Germany and Italy.

Albania was an Italian protectorate till the Spring of 1939. Mussolini "conquered" the country for appearances when Hitler finished absorbing Czhecoslovakia. An Italian general said it was like "Raping one's wife!"

[SeaMonkey]

Thanks JJ, for the confirming post, really not sure sometimes if my ideas are viable are not. There is so much BS swirling around in my "cabeza" and the neuron receptors are interrupted continuously that life has become a "walk in the park", constantly consumed by what feels "right", compelling, but always with a "hint" of doubt. The limited slots available for us in SC2 is sure to stimulate a lot of debate about what was historically possible and what was not.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey, I think we all get that BS swirling around in the cabeza feeling and it's healthy. For one thing, we read a lot of posts and can't possibly check out all the information, so some of what we come to believe is true, is completely untrue.

On the other hand, the most reputable historians often disagree completely with one another so, when it comes to history, it's well near impossible to know what is or isn't true.

Add to that the fact that new evidence is always being brought to light, often shattering previous assumptions, and we come to see how many variations turn out to be connected with all the things we once held to be true and irrefutable.

So -- we may as well speculate to our heart's content!

[Edwin P.]

The Case for 8 Major Countries (instead of six)

1. WWII - add China and Japan

2. WWI - add the Austrian Hungarian Empire and Turkey

3. The Napoleonic Wars - add Spain and the Austrian Hungarian Empire

4. Ancient Rome - Rome, Greece, Persia, Egypt, Carthage, Vandals, Huns

However, I know that this is not to be and accept the six major limit in the current design specs along with the absence of railroad tiles (needed for my civil war mod).

[Retributar]

Never accept the status quo!...if you are not entirely happy with it.

Press on and on until your case has been properly served! (i too have tried...and have had nearly no-success)... i too would like to see 8 major countries...but, only as an additional option...as SC2 is for now, primarily a European War!.

The extra 'Major Countries' feature would really be useful for designing 'Mods' or new scenarios...etc!.