Canada

[Augustus]

Interesting points made. Though by the end of July '42 Montgomery ceased responsibility for the military side of the Dieppe raid, Monty was the senior military planner for Dieppe. Even though he was in Egypt at the time of the raid (Aug. 18) his plan was not altered in any significant way.

Early '42, he was General Officer Commanding-in-Chief South Eastern Command (Home Forces).

Also, Canada as a major power? Difficult question. Certainly helped western allies stay alive (namely UK) from '40-'43, yet I suspect by '44-'45 US material dominance shifted the significance (not importance) away from Canada.

Cheers

Augustus

PS- its' nice to see a thread on Canada...a country that played an important role in WWII.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Canadians were never used as cannon fodder by the Allies, though. You mention that Canada "demanded to have a beach on D-Day" - I am not sure that is true (after the bulk of the Army sat in the UK from December 1939 on, I am sure Montgomery and Eisenhower were more than happy to assign them an important task), but I can tell you that Canada certainly insisted on sending men to Hong Kong and again at Dieppe. I believe it was Crerar, acting as Army commander while McNaughton was in Canada, who insisted that the Canadians be allowed to carry out the Dieppe Raid.

It was Canadians who did the planning for Dieppe (Churchill Mann, especially, seems to have played a key role).

Canadians were very concerned about the "cannon fodder" thing - they insisted on sending a corps headquarters to Italy so that the two Canadian divisions there could be under Canadian command. Don't think that this meant they were appalled by the British commanding them - in fact, the Canadians in Italy loved being part of the 8th Army. Firstly, 8th Army was a famous formation that had won the war in the desert, or at least that is what the press told everyone. Secondly, the 8th Army had very lax dress regulations and concentrated on fighting, not appearances. The appearance of a Canadian corps headquarters under Crerar insured a whole raft of useless orders and directives, including admonitions about being "out of proper uniform" which the veteran soldiers of 1st and 5th Divisions looked at with disdain. Not only was the corps headquarters there primarily to get Canadian staff officers and commanders "battle experience", but it also represented a woeful misuse of soldiers - all the troops that went into this corps headquarters represented a drain on manpower (enough men to fill several companies of infantry) and moreover, there were more than enough corps headquarters in 8th Army.

But - since Canada was determined to have its troops commanded by nationals, the corps headquarters went off to Italy.

You are correct that they "often had their own commanders" - in fact, they always had their own commanders, even when it was difficult to find suitable officers. When Tommy Burns took over the corps headquarters in Italy, and was found wanting, he was left in place for two reasons - firstly, he was winning battles, and secondly, there were no Canadians to replace him and the British commander of either 8th Army or the Med theatre as a whole actually thought of replacing him with a Britisher.

There were a few exceptions of Canadians being under "foreign" command - 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion was commanded by a Canadian, but the battalion served in British 6th Airborne Division. Likewise the 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment ("the Kangaroos") served in the British 79th Armoured Division. The 2nd Parachute Battalion was the Canadian component of the First Special Service Force ("Devil's Brigade") and served under a US commander.

Canadian troops may also have been under US command in the Aleutians - much of their equipment was US manufactured for that operation - but the 13th Canadian Infantry Brigade, like the rest of the force, saw no action there as the Japanese had fled by the time the Allies landed.

What Canada would have done if the UK fell is open to conjecture. Likely they would have become Russian allies; it is possible they would have fought alongside the US in the Pacific presuming that Germany invaded Russia in 1941 after the fall of the UK and the Japanese also attacked the United States. Given a lack of a base in England, it might have been that Canada joined Australia and New Zealand in clearing the south Pacific, or, who knows, even sending troops to the Soviet Union. War, like politics, makes strange bedfellows.

But I don't see Hitler crossing the Atlantic - his eyes were always firmly cast to the East.

[Michael Dorosh]

ahem....South Eastern Command was very quickly (and illegally) renamed South Eastern Army by Monty, as he wanted to be an "Army commander" and felt that the title Army was more aggressive sounding.