Edwin P. Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Any chance for Active Neutrals? What is an Active Neutral? A major neutral nation (Spain or Turkey) that acts according to its own AI. It can attack another nation without triggering an automatic act of war. The actions and movements of its units are limited by its AI, not by a human player. An active neutral can produce its own units and launch diplomatic initiatives with the major powers. Example 1: Spain as an Active Neutral A. While an Active Neutral Spain may decide to attack Gibraltar, this does not trigger an automatic state of war with the UK unless the UK decides to. If the UK treats this as a DOW then Spain joins the Axis. If the UK decides to ignore this action then Spanish units attacks Gibraltar and UK units may freely attack only Spanish units attacking Gibraltar, without forcing Spain to join the Axis. B. While an active neutral Spain may decide to attack Vichy Algeria. C. While an active neutral Spanish units may not move beyond the confines of Spain and Algeria. D. While an Active Neutral Spain may ask the Allies for MPPS with which to increase the size of their army. E. While an Active Neutral Spain may ask the Axis for MPPs with which to increase the size of their army. How would this work. Spain begins the game as a pure neutral nation. Actions by the Axis and Allies may cause it to become an Active neutral. Example: Axis attacks Sweden, Switzerland and Vichy France. Spain becomes an Active Neutral and asks for military assistance from the UK and begins to produce units. Spain may also ask Germany for a promise and MPPs not to attack Spain, else, it threatens to join allies. If UK experiences large losses at sea and/or the Axis invades the UK then Spain may decide to attack Gibraltar. UK is given option to DOW Spain or not, or to pursue a limited war that is limited to attacking Spainish units adjacent to Gibraltar. If Axis attacks conquers France Spain may, but not always (use of diplomatic chit?), offer the Axis the chance to station air units, not land units, in Spain in exchange for Vichy Algeria. Example 2: Turkey as Active Neutral A. If Turkey becomes an active neutral it may pursue an active foreign policy (say 1 in 10 games), product units and act with its own AI. B. Turkish units may move to attack Vichy Syria. C. Turkish units may attack Iraq. UK reaction may be: C1. Let Turkey have it. C2. Lets defend Iraq (UK units may enter Iraq and attack Turkish units in Iraq without triggering war with Turkey) but can not attack Turkish units in Turkey. C3. DOW Turkey, Turkey joins Axis. C4. Demand that Turkey withdraw. (%) for Turkey to accept. C5. Will will accept Turkish control over Iraq in exchange for Free Passage to/from the Black Sea. D. If Vichy France Surrenders to Germany then Turkey may attack Vichy Syria. Axis reaction may be: D1. Let Turkey have it. D2. Lets defend Syria. D3. DOW Turkey, Turkey joins Allies D4. Demand that Turkish units withdraw. (%) for Turkey to accept. E. An Active Turkey may offer Non-Russian Allies free passage to the Black Sea in exchange for Technology or MPPs. F. An Active Turkey may offer to assist the Allies in excange for Territory promised by the Earlier peace treay signed with Russia and Iraq and Syria. This causes - Active Turkey to launch AI controlled attacks on the Axis, limited by the fact that Turkish units may not move further than 10 tiles from Turkish Territory. Allied units can trace supply to Turkish cities. Turkey gains territory from Russia in Caucaus mountains. Once tide of war turns towards Allies then Turkey becomes neutral once more. Imagine the shock on the Axis player's face when he encounters Turkish units in the Causcause mountains and/or invading Bulgaria and/or liberating Iraq. Of course the loss of 5 Russian cities/resource hexes will cost the Russians 50MPP per turn. [ October 24, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalmatiaPartisan Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 good ideas from You Edwin again-seems like we are the minority of players who d like to see more random political and war events and more intelligent neutrals. Also consider possibility of other alliances between neutrals-small Antanta or etc... More active neutral would be a goal for SC It makes game somehow more like chess when axis always know in which position neutrals units are. example-regrouping of axis units on conquered norwegian-swedish border could cause some random events which will make things harder(or even easier) for axis-like entrenchment, lower or higher readiness of Swedish troups, possibility of placing units for allied or even AI on other hexes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_onepercent Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Are minor nations going to collect their MPP and spend it on more troops during their neutrality? I like what you say Edwin, but maybe it's abit too much with limited wars between Spain and UK etc. I'd be very happy if the neutrals simply collected their mpp and bought new units when they could. Just like DalmatiaPartisan says re: chess, this would add that unknown factor into the game. Not knowing where they have their units, nor exactely what kind of units they have, nor how many units they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted October 24, 2004 Author Share Posted October 24, 2004 DalmatiaPartisan: regrouping of axis units on conquered norwegian-swedish border could cause some random events which will make things harder(or even easier) for axis-like entrenchment, lower or higher readiness of Swedish troups, possibility of placing units for allied or even AI on other hexes... Excellent idea. In Practical Terms Each Axis Unit on Border of Sweden after Norway surrenders = 5% Chance for Swedish Mobilization 4 Axis units on Swedish Border = 20% Swedish mobilization. 5 Axis units on Swedish Border = 25% Swedish mobilization. Swedish Mobilization Effect 50% Sweden Mobilizes an additional Corps 25% Swedish Units Begin to Entrench 25% Sweden Mobilizes a HQ Unit. 25% Swedish Corps - half strength - guards Swedish/Norwegian Border 25% Swedish Post Surrender Partisans Activated 25% Sweden asks UK to deploy Air Fleet to Stockholm. UK has option to operate UK airfleet(s) to Neutral Stockholm, if so, then Axis sees popup: UK Air Fleet Arrives in Sweden at Invitation of Swedish Government. This airfleet may not attack until Sweden joins the Allies, but it can spot enemy units. On average, Swedish mobilization means that 1 or 2 of the above events will occur. As _onepercent says; "this would add that unknown factor into the game. Not knowing where they have their units, nor exactely what kind of units they have, nor how many units they have." or if Swedish partisans would be activated. Or as _onepercent also suggest, let their be a chance that the major neutrals use their MPP production to purchase more units. A simplified Active Neutral: For example - let their be a 10% per game (1 in 10 games) that Turkey becomes an Active Neutral and uses its MPP production (from 3 cities and 1 port) to purchase new units, about 1 corps every 4 turns. Then, once it has purchased 5 units it attacks Vichy Syria and then Neutral Iraq, annexing these two territories. Perhaps allowing the Allies to ship supplies to Russia in exchange for; Improved Infantry Technology or Mpps to purchase an Air Fleet or a HQ unit. Or does it blockade Allies supplies to Russia in exchange for aid from the Axis. Perhaps if the Axis conquers Egypt, the Turks having conquered Syria and Iraq, threaten to attack Egypt. Does the Axis defend Egypt and force Turkey to join the Allies or does the Axis relent and give Turkey control over Egypt in order to maintain a neutral Turkey? And if the Axis declines Turkey's ultimatium does Turkey attack or does it back down? Does Turkey Backdown from Threat to Invade Egypt? 25% per Axis unit in Egypt or 100% if Russia has surrendered, -20% per 5 Turkish Units above 10. Thus, if 1 Axis unit in Cairo 25% that Turkey decides backs down from invasion threat. If 4 Axis units in Egypt then 100% Turkey backs down from invasion threat. However, if Turkey has 15 Units then the chance of Turkey backing down is reduced by 20%, if Turkey has 20 units mobilized then the chance of them backing down is reduced by 40%. Does Turkey Threaten an Invasion of Axis controlled Egypt? Probably only 1 in 20 games. +25% if Turkey controls Vichy Syria +25% if Turkey controls Iraq +25% if Allies use Diplomatic Chit to encourage Turkish Aggression against Axis controlled Egypt -25% if Axis use Diplomatic Chit to encourage peace with Turkey -100% if Russia has surrendered to Axis +10% if Italy controls Egypt. And what happens if Turkey successfully annexes Egypt, in addition to Syria and Iraq? Will its leaders stop their expansion or will they continue to rebuild the Ottoman empire? Perhaps they then demand that Italy withdraws from Libya? If the Italians refuse then the Turks threaten to join the Allies! Will Turkey demand the return of Territory from Russia? If the Russians refuse, then Turkey may join the Axis? In fact, at this could be a great balancing tool in HvH games. With an Active Neutral Turkey threatening the stronger player, be it Allied or Axis, with territorial demands and the Human player not knowing how strong the Turkish Army is. A strong human player might suddenly see himself threatened with a demand for territory by Turkey - Decline and Turkey may join the other side, accept this demand and your production is weakened. Of course, I would limit Turkey's asperations to Vichy Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Caucaus Russia, Bulgaria, Albania, the northern part of Greece and a few tiles of Yugoslavia - the domain of the Ottoman Empire. Simarily, I would limit Spain's asperations to Gibraltar and Algeria. Naturally Germany giving Egypt to Turkey would damage relations with Italy and Germany giving Vichy Algeria or Vichy France to Spain would also damage relations with Italy - perhaps leading Italy to become a neutral power and withdraw its units from the front lines. [ October 25, 2004, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Any thoughts on making Russia a third (independent) player from the Axis. Russia and the Western Allies had a common enemy, but, things could have played differently... Russia and Germany would always have a hot frontier, any unbalance in the garrison of the frontier could trigger a war. But, perhapps Germany could have focused more on its war against England, while Russia took on the rest of Finland, Iraq, Iran, Turkey... I think a three way game (Axis, Western Allies, Russia) or even a four way game (Axis, Western Allies, Russia, Turkey) would be much more interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 ...oops, I meant to say "any thoughts on making Russia a third (independent) player from the Allies". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roosevelt45(the 2nd) Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'm pro On both ev's and Edwin's propositions. only I would like to have the independant Russia-thing as an option only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by ev: Any thoughts on making Russia a third (independent) player from the Axis. Russia and the Western Allies had a common enemy, but, things could have played differently... Russia and Germany would always have a hot frontier, any unbalance in the garrison of the frontier could trigger a war. But, perhapps Germany could have focused more on its war against England, while Russia took on the rest of Finland, Iraq, Iran, Turkey... I think a three way game (Axis, Western Allies, Russia) or even a four way game (Axis, Western Allies, Russia, Turkey) would be much more interesting... This is one option I would love to see. If I'm right, it has been said that once Axis is defeated, Russia or Allies can declare ware on one another, thus continuing the war and trying to remove another tyrant from the earth. As many military officials wanted to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted October 26, 2004 Author Share Posted October 26, 2004 It would be interesting, as Blashy and Roosevelt45 (the 2nd) proposed, if in H vs AI games if the Allies won the system allowed Russia and the West to fight it out, with the Human Player being assigned the side (US/UK/France OR USSR) with the lower MPP production (usually the Western Allies). Essentially Game Option for: Allies Win > Popup Message: War Between Western Allies and Russia? Yes/No > If YES game continues with Allies at war with USSR. Human Player assigned to Alliance with lower MPP production (usually Western Allies). AI controlled alliance moves first (or randomly selected side moves first?) in a surprise attack. If NO game ends normally. Not a must have feature, but it would make for an interesting extension of the game. [ October 26, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I remember Hubert saying this will be possible. The Allies vs. Russia option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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