Patton, Afrika Corps, and Desert Warfare Question…

[anoldman]

First: Loving the game and having a blast.

So, I am no WWII Grognard, and maybe suffer from a fairly slanted American view of the war, but one of the things I remember from my history classes and such is the battle for northern Africa and an invasion of Italy.

In both SC1 and SC2, it doesn’t seem like either of these are that important, and gamewise, I cant really see ever invading Italy, and a stalemate in Africa (or at least no sending additional units) seems an acceptable position?

I accept this is a game, and it wouldn’t be much fun if it always led to the same outcome as RL, but when I think of WWII (at least the European portion), I think of (off top of my head and in no particular order):

--Fall of France

--Air Battle over Britain

--Eastern Front/Stalingrad/Surround-cutoff Supply-Envelop Tactics

--Rommel and Northern Afrika Mechanized Battles

--Wolfpacks and Convoys

--Invasion of Italy

--D-Day

Also, perhaps another nod to game balance, but I seem to remember that USA had a 100 or so divisions in WWII? I know many were Pacific, but it seems to me in my 1939 games (SC1 and limited SC2 Games), that the U.S. is marginal impact if any?

Just kind of curious from those Grognards out there whether the U.S. is relatively well represented, whether the Northern Africa actions were important, and was the Italy invasion just another sign the war was already over, or was it important to the overall tide of war?

Would the war have turned out differently if Rommel had maintained control of the desert?

Was D-Day and America's involvement a non-effect on the eastern front?

Just curious.

Thanks!

--AOM

[ April 14, 2006, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: An Old Man ]

[Blashy]

The Axis were already loosing the war versus the Russians alone, mainly because of dumbass decisions by the clown Hitler.

But USA landings in France vs. a good Axis player can help change the tide of war since a good Axis player with history as hindsight will not make as many mistakes and so the game in Russia can be slanted towards the Axis.

As for Italy, it can be attractive, take out Rome and ALL of Italy surrenders, all those troops off the board and plunder of 1000s of MPPs. You simply have to do what the Allies did, operation Torch first (taking of Cassablanca), which means a DoW on Vichy France (which is what occured historically).

But USA at maximum Industrial Tech produces almost as many MPPs as expanded Germany. They are a big factor.

[anoldman]

Thanks Blashy, I appreciate that synopsis.

As you refer to, in my games the Russian east front is the key. I think I could almost wave America coming in at all.

By the time America seems to be willing to join in (Diplomacy chits maybe?), the war seems to have generally tipped one way or the other in the east.

If it is tipped towards the Russians, they are on a slow unstoppable march to Berlin.

If tipped towards Germans, it is a matter of cleanup to secure the final MPPs.

Rarely seems to be a stalemate that America's entrance tips scales in.

Good stuff though. Thanks for the thoughts.

--AOM

p.s. What is a "DoW"?

[ April 14, 2006, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: An Old Man ]

[Blashy]

Declare of War = DoW

[anoldman]

Ahh!! I surmised that was the gist of it but I was thinking "DWo"--> Declare War on...

Lol... Decleration of War is ok to though

--AOM

[Lars]

The US invaded North Africa because of the inability to invade France in 1942-43. Was seen as better politically to be doing something than just sitting around building up. And it did take all the pressure off the Brits in Egypt.

I don't know yet, but I can see where the same thing might work this time around in SC2. Knocking out the weaker partner Italy early might be a good strategy. At the very least, you've tripled the amount of coastline the Axis has to guard.

[jon_j_rambo]

I dispute the claims of Blashy here.

[anoldman]

Hmm... that makes sense to me Lars except for the fact that by the time the Americans seem to enter the war, well, it is essentially over.

Especially when you consider packing up the troops, more turns to sail the pond, finally land, etc...

Maybe you are inferring to land Italy instead of Western France? Adds a turn or two. Hmm... that is something to toss around. Especially if Italy collapses on a successful taking of Rome.

Either way, what about North Africa?

might be just me vs. AI but again, U.S. doesn’t come in till seems like game is already tipped. Is that not the case for you all usually?

Woot!

--AOM

[anoldman]

Thanks Rambo. I appreciate that my question has probably filled volumes of books by itself. I would appreciate your thoughts though!

I guess my classes taught me that America was just a little more critical to the outcome of the war. Maybe it was just in ways that aren't as well modeled in the game? (Like aircraft, trucks, etc... sent to UK and Russia?).

Woot!

--AOM

[jon_j_rambo]

@An Old Man --- Hey brother, I know where this is going & I know where you stand. You must remember, that the Forum posters tend to be against the USA is all shapes & forms. They won't come out and say it, but they are. They worship WW-2 Germany.

[Liam]

Well, All about PowerShifts. The most powerful nation during WW2 was split between 3 Nations. Germany/USA/USSR

UK, France and Japan were all small players. Italy you could count as counterproductive as a Nation...

USA never really needed to help USSR or UK that much, they pretty much whooped Hitler alone. USA did however subdue Japan by themselves. and sent a million or so men to aide in taking down Western Europe so the Communists didn't get it all. Noone would want that now would they? But of course the MiddleEast was a European Concern and the Far East and American Concern and Interest. Also similarly Eastern Europe was nothing the Americans much cared of and so long as Stalin was slowly pushing we waited with the least casualties got the High Quality Real Estate of the day... Of course Keeping Greece, Austria and Sweden a cut off not to give ole Joe too much

LOL

Had USA gone all out at Germany, invaded through Spain into France in WW2... My personal Opinion, possible the War would've ended in 1943

Had WW3 erupted... Millions of Americans would've died in the early 50s...Defending France and Germany likely.. Millions didn't die in WW2 because the Russians were greedy, they took the Baltics, a portion of Finland, a portion of Eastern Poland and wanted pieces of Romania... Heck, what would've been next?

They got buttsmacked all the way ot Moscow and nearly wiped off the face of the planet if not for a little aide, those few hundred thousand men in the West and a few 88s could've helped to "level" stalingrad and a few other places... Do not miss it, the UK and the USA are almost One Indentity in WW2... Though seperate they worked extremely close, far closer than any other Ally in WW2

[Tagwyn]

JJR: How is the new SC2? I have played the demo and not been too impressed. What is your take? Thanks. Tag

[Lars]

Originally posted by An Old Man:

Hmm... that makes sense to me Lars except for the fact that by the time the Americans seem to enter the war, well, it is essentially over.

Especially when you consider packing up the troops, more turns to sail the pond, finally land, etc...

Maybe you are inferring to land Italy instead of Western France? Adds a turn or two. Hmm... that is something to toss around. Especially if Italy collapses on a successful taking of Rome.

Either way, what about North Africa?

might be just me vs. AI but again, U.S. doesn’t come in till seems like game is already tipped. Is that not the case for you all usually?

Woot!

--AOM

Try unchecking Variable US Entry.

[Blashy]

The AI with regards to USA is being worked on as we write. We can't really judge it now as it never sends troops ANYWHERE...

[jon_j_rambo]

Camp Rambo hasn't published their offical testing results.

[GrognardFortyPlus]

Originally posted by Lars:

The US invaded North Africa because of the inability to invade France in 1942-43. Was seen as better politically to be doing something than just sitting around building up. And it did take all the pressure off the Brits in Egypt.

It also gave the green American troops some experience.