Bruce70 Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 I hope that the inclusion of force limits will also be accompanied by additional detail in other associated areas. For example, there will be no more conquering Spain, Romania, Hungary etc. just for the hell of it. Instead, the Axis player will want to have these minors join the Axis (same is true for the Allies). Since this is now such a large part of the game, there nees to be a more transparent (and possibly more detailed) diplomatic system IMO. I know this has already been discussed, but I think it should be revisited in the context of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 Originally posted by Edwin P.: Another alternative to consider, might be to say that the force limits might be based on X points of units, Corps = 1 point, Army = 2 points, Carrier = 4 Points. Therefore a nation can build 4 Corps OR 2 Armies OR 1 Carrier OR 2 Corps and 1 Army. This is a bit more flexible than the Hard and Soft limits by unit type. Great idea Edwin. Force limits create some odd distortions. One of these distortions. For example: using force limits we could find the odd situation in which we cannot make more Infantry Corps but we can make more Infantry Armies! That does not make sense, does it? Edwin's idea would take care of this problem.: Set a limit at a country's total strength, and, let the player choose his favorite force structure. I think this would be much better than the current idea for force limits. Originally posted by Edwin P.: Still another idea, might be to allow the conquest of Oil Resources to increase the Force Limits of Specific types of units for specific countries... Another great idea, and, straight to the point. Germany looses Ploesti, Germany is screwed. Easy, simple, straightforward, deadly, and, true. Originally posted by Kuniworth: Problem is how to look upon reinforcements - they require manpower as well but can't be modeled. Right on the mark, Kuniworth. Force limits do not account for reinforcements or lack there off. Both Germany and Russia stretched their manpower to thin. They suffered millions of casualties: Germany 3.25 million, Soviet 12 million. And that’s only military casualties, I am not counting civilian casualties. Russia lost 17 million civilians for a staggering total of 29 million. The death toll of World War II was trully staggering: 36 million civillians and 14.6 million soldiers died thoughout the world. Another 30 million soldiers were wounded. Russia tops the list with 29 million dead. China 9.1 million dead. Poland 6.3 million dead (mostly civilians)! Germany 4.9 - 5.7 million dead, depending on whether you include Austria and other “Germanic” teritorries. Japan 1.9 million dead. Originally posted by SeaMonkey: Food for thought: from WW2 Encyclopedia: Population/ No.in Armed Forces France 42 million/ 4.6 million Germany 78 million(1938)/ 17.9 mil. Italy 43.8 mil./ unknown Japan 72.2 mil. (37)/ 9.1 mil. UK 47.5 mil/ 5.9 mil USA 129.2 mil./ 16.4 mil USSR 194.1 mil/ 30 mil. Well, I looked up the casualty rates for each country and obtained the following ratios: Country------Population------No. Armed Forces---Casualties------No. Armed --------------------------------------------------------------------------Forces+Casualties --------------------------------------------------------------------------As % of Population France-------- 42 Million -------- 4.6 Million ------- 0.6 Million -------- 1.42% Germany----- 78 Million ------ 17.9 Million ------- 5.7 Million ------- 27.12% UK----------- 47.5 Million ------ 5.9 Million ------- 1.3 Million ------- 13.27% USA---------129.2 Million ---- 16.4 Million ------- 0.4 Million ------- 13.01% USSR------- 194.1 Million ---- 30 Million ------- 29.0 Million ------- 21.64% * Casualties include both military and civilian casualties. Note the staggering numbers for Russia, but also note that as a percentage of its population, the numbers for Germany are even more appalling. We know that Britain felt the manpower pinch at 13.27%. And the US was not that far behind. We know that the level of US mobilization was carefully studied by the Pentagon, targets were set early in the war, and, carefully revised as the war proceeded. It is interesting to note the numbers remained just a notch below the British, which we know faced manpower shortages. Kuddos for Marshall and Co. It gets even worse. Germany had 7.25 million men wounded during WWII. Russia had 14 million men wounded during WWII. These wounded men are part of the men in the Armed Forces listed above. So the percentage in the final column should not be altered by this additional data. But, these wounded men needed medical attention which placed further strains on the system as a whole. For the sake of comparison, while Germany had 7.25 million wounded, and Russia had 14 million wounded, the UK had 369,000 men wounded, and, the US, including both the Pacific and Europe, had 670,000 wounded. 27.12% of Germany’s population was either at arms or killed as a result of the war. This is a huge demographic drain. Germany’s ratio more than doubled the rate for Uk or the US! The manpower shortage was clearly staggering. We know both the German and the Russian economy suffered due to lack of manpower. There is plenty anecdotal evidence. There are accounts of lack of labor to gather the harvest of ‘42! German infantry was detailed to harvest grain. Russian POW’s were used in German factories not only because Hitler was a racist bigot but because Germany’s factories were desperately short of manpower. And, remember the movie Shindler’s List (sp?). Shindler got away with saving the handful of Jews working for him only because there was a real shortage labor in Germany. The above data suggests that 13% mobilization was a critical point for warring countries during WWII. In light of this data, I feel that the soft limit production penalties for Germany and Russia should be revised so that soft force limit production penalties kick in when the military roughly takes 13% of the population base. Of couse we would have to revise upward the MPP production for both Germany and Russia so they can pay up for the units they would have to purchase beyond this 13% mobilization level. Adjusting downward the soft limits for Germany and Russia would encourage players to find ways to fight the war with a smaller demographic commitment. And, it would provide players with a more realistic assessment of how thinly stretched were both Germany and Russia during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Many postings by many refer to loose as lose....not correct..."lose" means 'you lost' ......"loose" means 'not tight' ...otherwise im enjoying the conversations. One other thing...please leave an address for where you get your information...i usually like to check it out myself to verify and or to study further!. -------- Statistics of World War II Including the European and Pacific Theaters http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/statistics.htm COUNTRIES:___TOTAL DEATHS_____MILITARY / CIV DEATHS USSR-----------(10.4%) 20,600,000-------13,600,000 / 7,000,000 GERMANY--------(09.5%) 6,850,000--------3,250,000 / 3,600,000 POLAND----------(17.2%) 6,123,000----------123,000 / 6,000,000 JAPAN------------(02.7%) 2,000,000-------- YUGOSLAVIA----(10.9%) 1,706,000------- FRANCE------------(01.9%) 810,000----------340,000 / 470,000 GREECE------------(07.2%) 520,000------- UNITED STATES---(00.4%) 500,000----------500,000 AUSTRIA-----------(07.2%) 480,000------- ROMANIA----------(03.4%) 460,000------- HUNGARY----------(03.0%) 420,000------- ITALY--------------(00.9%) 410,000----------330,000 / 80,000 CZECHOSLOVAKIA(02.7%) 400,000------- GREAT BRITAIN---(00.8%) 388,000----------326,000 / 62,000 NETHERLANDS----(02.4%) 210,000----------198,000 / 12,000 BELGIUM------------(01.1%) 88,000-----------76,000 / 12,000 FINLAND------------(02.2%) 84,000------- AUSTRALIA---------(00.3%) 39,000------- CANADA------------(00.3%) 34,000------- [ July 26, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 Kuniworth, I will make a point of quoting my data in the future. One of the sites I used for the above section was: http://www.world-war-2.info/statistics/ and http://www.world-war-2.info/casualties/ Now, remember that in the table above I am adding Deaths + Men in Arms to obtain a Total Demographic Drain. So, for example, if Germany lost 5.7 million dead (6.85 per yout table) and had 17.9 million men in the armed forces, the Total Demographic Drain was 5.7+ 17.9 = 23.6 million or 27.12% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Now I'd like to see how much Manpower was executed by Hitler and Stalin between the years of 1939 and 1945? 5% of Skilled workers would be a guesstimate for Germany...at least or even more.. for Russia a massive percentage of Officer Corps, it was rumored that Stalin murdered a HOLY rough figure of 50,000,000...during his purges, modernization, paranoid phazes... Back of these figures... 1 Million German Jews, and how many Satelite or Annexed Regions that would be direct Industrial might to their side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 Liam, I think there is a mistake in the 50,000,000 figure. The population of Russia was 190 million. The Russian Army was around 5.4 million strong when the purges took place. ...Otherwise, it is true Stalin killed a lot many people, before, during, and, after the war. Stalin not only purged the officer corps, he killed Polish POW's, he declared traitors all russians who surrendered ot the Germans (including his own son). Sfter the war Stalin sent these Russians to force labor camps together with the German soldiers to which once they had surrendered. Millions of this former Russian (and German) soldiers died in Siberia and elsewhere. Stalin excesses are not better known only because of the magnitude of the German holocaust and because Stalin was among the victors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Ev, it's true noone really knows what Stalin murdered. Didn't mean just during the purges, and noone knows if what he did was actually for a good reason either? heh he executed so many "questionable" people who was left to fight a civil war or to oppose him. Saddam mirrors his sort of TerrorRule. Being the Victor of WW2 I suppose we'll never know who was a bigger Monster, Hitler had bigger Horns but did he have a bigger Hand in senseless Murder? I'm not sure, but both definitely thinned out the Manpower in their nations unneccessarily. 50 Mil is a massive estimate, I've heard of them finding millions of skeletons on either Discovery or National Geographic outside of Moscow or was it Leningrad in a mass burial ground... I do feel that Tens of Millions went though and many others do too. Here is a site with an interesting topic on Communist Murders, figures. Just discussion but backs up my initial claims of a "Massive Amount" I don't think Stalin cared much about losing Manpower, look what his purges did to his Officer Corp, and look what you said about his son. Many instance of his total disregard for Human life. I remeber a move based on Stalin, made for HBO I believe, I remeber they refused him entrance into WW1 as a soldier because he had disformities, that the recruiter said matched the sign of the Devil in Orthodox church! Interesting aye??? Heh! I definitely think Hitler and Stalin could have tea together! http://hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=17006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roosevelt45(the 2nd) Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 I definitely think Hitler and Stalin could have tea together! And they did! Well, maybe not tea but something anyway. the molotov-von ribbentrop pact divided the baltic states and poland between these two dictators, as I'm sure most of you history-freaks know . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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