Help with operation Barbarosa!

[Bromley]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood . I played a similar thing back in 1995 with the Gulf War.

[tunatamaker]

well actually the class is AP comparative government, but nobody is taking the AP test, so he just changed the course! LOL!

thanks for all the help guys. Please keep it comming, because if i can take over russia, it is an automatic A in the class. I really appreciate you guys helping me out choosing to invest in.

any strategic help would be appreciated on how to take over leningrad. Like what should I do to do so effectively and easily. also Moscow after leningrad.

[JerseyJohn]

In an ironic move, Hitler, who kept saying he wanted to level Leningrad to the ground and make it a swamp again, rejected the Finnish plan to open Lake Ladoga and flood the city! The death toll would have been staggering, of course, because Stalin refused to allow an evacuation the first year of the siege, claiming the troops would fight harder to defend a live city than a deserted one. I'm sure Hitler didn't go against the plan because of all the floating Russian corpses. My guess is that the levelled city talk was only politics and he wanted the place, as much of it as could be salvaged, and it's population, as many of them as could be taken alive.

How to take Leningrad?

Germany never put enough troops into closing the ring around the city, and the Finns refused to cross over onto what had been Soviet territory, so the place, despite the low trickle of troops and supplies that came into it, was never actually under siege. During the summer boats crossed the lake to bring in supplies, and during the winter trucks were driven across the ice, trying to dodge German bombs and shells.

So, I'd say, put double the number of troops there that Hitler did, close the ring so supplies and reinforcements can't get through, and it has to fall within a couple of months.

Or, adapt the Finnish plan, open Lake Ladoga, and flush the place into the Baltic.

[arado234]

Tunatamaker,if diplomacy is involved,is it possible for germany when they attack that they have chance to be treated as liberators?If so you should be able to win without firing hardly a shot.If you can get the whole of southwest russia to join your side(like they were willing and able to do)you will have a massive army to attack the troops loyal to stalin.Just feed them munitions and weapons and let them fight each other.In real life(i dont know how technical your game is going to be)it was felt that had the germans taken this approach russia was in big trouble and stalin and is boys were probably finished.You then can go deal with the british,especially in africa,all before america gets into it.

[JerseyJohn]

From early 1942 till the end of the campaign, the German army relied so heavily upon Russians to replace it's casualties that, without them, the war could not have been continued as it was. During the first year divisional commanders faked the records, showing the Russians as "Race Germans."

Nazi racial stupidities cost them both the war in Russia, and the war itself. It's that simple.

[tunatamaker]

how does that help me with the game?

[Liam]

Originally posted by tunatamaker:

Hello Guys,

I am new to the game...very new. In my history class we are running a simulation of World War II in which people are divided into countries. I am Germany and the simulation starts with Operation Barbarossa! What am i supposed to do? Any guides or strategies? I dont want to invade russia to start with, that will be my demise!

Barbarossa is the Very King of Campaigns for Germany, especially since the UK isn't much of a challenge to take. Also it really doesn't pay much vs taking the USSR.

Personally, if you want to Take the Soviets you need to come strong, with 1 or 2 Major goals in mind, unlike historically where the German's split up their attacks, trying to take Leningrad, Moscow and then Stalingrad also Caucasus... Too many objectives too thin a line to actually achieve anything... You want to take the Russians you must have realistic goals you take one at a time. You must take down say Leningrad, then move onto Moscow, then finish off Stalingrad, one at a time. Not all at once, do not divide your forces. It doesn't matter which City, Mine, Oilfield, region one a time you wish to take but you must plan ahead of time. If you have a Greater Strategic Goal in mind, keep research, unit builds, resource allocation on the whole aimed toward these goals. Usually against an adept player no mixture of any of these will garauntee success but you will have a slight bit better chance at it that's all I can say...

I rarely can take the USSR vs say Terif, very very adept Russian, uses the Terrain well, beware of players who use terrain, adapt your strategies, change and give the enemy the unexpected. It's such a difficulty to do this for some players, they tend to play the historical humdrum version of Barby,, this game is about a very different version of strategy and warfare. Goals are not so linear as they were in real life. You must balance what you gain from what you lose, it is possible to nearly forgo attack the USSR at all! YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO THAT, but you better have a Grand strategy in mind for it that is a winning one

P.S. I'm not sure without Moscow or Stalingrad now a Major Axis victory is possible need to recheck the Victory Conditions...

P.S.S. with the USA such a tiny blimp on the map it's hard to have any strategy aimed toward her and Carriers are much underpowered in SC2 so really the only logical place to Smash up the enemy is East. If IT Tech included all of Germany occupied territory this might be different, but she only receives revenue from her own Territory

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by tunatamaker:

how does that help me with the game?

Oh forget your game and your grade and your life already! We're talking about the deaths of over 30,000,000 people here and all you're worried about is your project! :mad:

Anyway, I have no idea how it helps you're game, project, whatever. Perhaps unravelling it will be the key to not simply an A on this thing, but your ticket to immortality!

[tunatamaker]

thanks for the sarcastic remark. really appreciate that JOHN.

[JerseyJohn]

Tunatamaker,

And well you should, though you confuse sarcasm with being profound. I don't deal in sarcasms.

The grade is secondary, what you get out of the experience is much more important.

The ugly part of this whole thing is what Hitler wanted from the end result was a couple of hundred million permanent slaves, and another hundred or so million people officially classified as subhumans who could be either worked to death, or killed where they stood.

So, if you want the key, it would be to put yourself in the deranged mind of someone who was seeking a new dark age, and who wanted to kill hundreds of millions of people, ultimately, to fulfill some self-professed cleansing process.

-- In the Ukraine, for example, SS squads had orders to strip the collectives bare of all the food they'd grown, to be redistributed among the German army and population at home, leaving the people who'd grown to crops to face a winter of starvation. You'd need to see all of this through the eyes of the man who issued that policy (through his underlings Goering and Himmler) in order to have an understanding of what was happening.

[Liam]

Sorry to say but Jersey John don't you think the Romans were like this in their conquests? Can you imagine the treatment of their own Barbarian Races? Relatively I cannot see a vast difference. The Goths didn't sack Rome because The Romans treated them fairly

German's were living in a different century in the 40s, they were not being realistic with the times. That's all... the United States had enslaved what percentage of their population just 80 years earlier?

A few madmen were created from the hate and greed of war and ill treatment. They were born in blood & Fire... No one can point fingers, Hatred lasts for many many lifetimes, just look at the Former Yugoslavia, a Miniature scale model of all the hate bottled up in Europe. It's only by some miracle all that is settled.. Europe is what it is, nothing spectacular in this, a bunch of races mixed up with a lot of inbred hatred toward one another. The Germans did indeed reaped what they sowed in WW2, 10 million dead? Relative to Population near what the Russians lost

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Tunatamaker,

And well you should, though you confuse sarcasm with being profound. I don't deal in sarcasms.

The grade is secondary, what you get out of the experience is much more important.

The ugly part of this whole thing is what Hitler wanted from the end result was a couple of hundred million permanent slaves, and another hundred or so million people officially classified as subhumans who could be either worked to death, or killed where they stood.

So, if you want the key, it would be to put yourself in the deranged mind of someone who was seeking a new dark age, and who wanted to kill hundreds of millions of people, ultimately, to fulfill some self-professed cleansing process.

-- In the Ukraine, for example, SS squads had orders to strip the collectives bare of all the food they'd grown, to be redistributed among the German army and population at home, leaving the people who'd grown to crops to face a winter of starvation. You'd need to see all of this through the eyes of the man who issued that policy (through his underlings Goering and Himmler) in order to have an understanding of what was happening.

[Bromley]

Just to add to what Liam was saying (in case you take it literally), you do still need to divide your forces somewhat.

So you don't invade with 100% heading for Leningrad, otherwise (a) the Russians will sweep up behind you to cut supply and/or ( they'll get a chance to dig in in the forward cities and slow you down when you do attack them.

The key is to maintain focus. So say you divide 50%, 25%, 25% between the Army Groups (north to south). Keep it that way until Leningrad falls (increase it if you have to to get Leningrad to fall). Then it's 75% Centre, 25% South. Then 25% Centre, 75% South.

That way you avoid transferring units from one front to another before they've attained your goal.

[tunatamaker]

Okay thanks for help. Conquering Leningrad is tuff though.

[Retributar]

tunatamaker

More tips for you!...

1. Bring in Fighters to assist in reducing Leningrad!.

2. When Leningrad is surrounded, attack with one unit, then try to move it out if you can and replace it with a fresh unit to attack Leningrad again from that same square [Rotate the troops out, to attack Leningrad]. Failure to replace the removed unit, may allow the Russian's to use the vacated square to implant one of their armies into it!,...so be careful here!. So...therefore,...'Winter' [Attack Strength may be reduced_Less Effective] or 'Spring' [MUD_Reduced Movement Capability...making Rotating troop's out much more difficult in a heated situation!] is probably not a good time to attack Leningrad!.

3. Use Warships to reduce the Harbour to '0' [Zero] to make the Leningrad defenders have a much more difficult time resupplying and restrengthening their forces.

4. Send one of your Finish troops or whatever you have to change the color of the ground from RED to GREY so that...again...resupply through the surrounding land area is not available for the defenders!. If you are successful in choking off their supply, the Russians should then be reduced or weaker turn after turn as you reduce the defence of the City!.

5. Make sure to have at least one 'HQ'[srength 10] in Effective Supply Range...to keep your Unit's in Supply and at maximum readiness!. Typically, the 'HQ' should be within 4 squares from a City, sometime's on occassion [summer+Flat Terrain]...the 'HQ' might be able to be 5 squares away from a Supply-City,...and still provide supply!.

[ March 09, 2007, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[JerseyJohn]

Liam,

With your comparison of the Third Reich to Ancient Rome, and it would have to be the Ancient Rome of the mad emperors, sure the Romans were just as brutal, perhaps moreso, but 2,000 years had elapsed and Germany was a modern nation.

The nazis seem to have gloried in reverting to the past, dead ways, such as reinstituting human slavery. With machines that have the power of hundreds of horses can using humans as pack animals really have any justification?

I've always said that, even if the Reich succeeded in all of it's conquests and survived WWII, it was doomed to fall apart from within. And I still say it, the whole witches bres was unstable and only able to exist for as long as it's population felt they were in dire danger from outside forces. Given half a chance to sit back and look at what they were living under they'd have begun bucking against it and something would have had to give way. In such cases the government, especially if it's a large nation, always becomes untenable and, ultimately, falls apart from it's own oppression.

[n0kn0k]

JJ you forget that up till the very end of the war the German people were still very supportive of the Reich. If it was due to the propaganda or not, who knows. This also shows in the production figures, which were still pretty high during the end of the war.

I'd even dare to say that with the modern communication and other tools at it's disposal the Reich would have stood a better chance then the Roman Empire to survive internal struggles and uprisings.

[Liam]

John,

There was no point to the brutality that the Nazis inflicted upon the Races in their temporary-short lived dominion. Indeed many of these individuals were likely Skilled Laborers put to no good use. It is possible that the Nazis shorted themselves 10 divisions in German Jews, considering they felt themselves German until 1933 they'd of served likely as well as any German Soldier. Likely Hundreds if not Thousands of military vehicles, not including the cost of Garrisons for these Slaves. In the end with the Partisans created and hatred toward the Germans on the whole, the price was probably 5% of German war effort??? Let's just put an estimated figure there, that may have been an edge she needed for ultimate victory...

The Romans on the scale were effecting probably a greater portion Souls, the Known World really aside from China or India. Their way of life was not so unlike the many other Civilizations of the Classic Era. Very Brutal and Harsh. Though smart enough to known how far they could take it before the slave whip would turn on them. I think the Roman's use of Slaves was more to profit than to inflict suffering. Regardless of the great amount of suffering caused.

The Germans mixed Extreme Ideology with Politics. Real bad thing. The Nazis came to power in an advanced Nation and with a lot of popular support. It's a real shocker for us that it would happen in a Western Society. Cultured, Educated, with such prodigies as Einstein.

Even educated, civilized souls are reverted back to base instinct and weep for lower ethical values when facing hardship. It is a true mass conversion to Evil and Darkness from a nation that probably had a great deal of light at the turn of the 20th century. Irony, perhaps we have a Devil in this World After all.

[jon_j_rambo]

They are all a bunch of Buntas. Don't let anybody kid you. They stuffed people in ovens, beat up little old ladies walking home from the stores at night, broke into homes, sent tanks on farmers, etc. I could careless what kind of a society or technology those devils had. Then when the Americans entered into Germany, it was..."Oh, me no Nazi. Me, no Nazi. Me not Hitler." Yeah, whatever. Those German people knew exactly what they were doing. Don't give the "regular German army" was okay stuff either, they killed people too.

Thank God for the USA. Thank God for the 2nd Ammendment.

-Legend

[JerseyJohn]

nOKnOK

True, there are always cases like North Korean where an oppressive regime survives for a long time, but it's always because the leaders have managed to convince the people that there's a terrible menace outside the country.

Nazi Germany, during the war, wasn't a bad place for Germans who could prove they didn't have tainted blood and who didn't cause any trouble. Before the war there was a lot of prosperity that replaced abject poverty, though it was never quite as bad as post Czarist Russia.

Hitler and his bunch succeeded as coming off as saviors for the German people and they did have total loyalty from most of them. But that was in a comparatively small place and for a comparatively short time, and from a comparatively small % of what would have been their total population.

Had the Reich won their part of the war, which is to say, survived and made peace with the United States and UK, presumably having conquered European Russia along the way, how much loyalty could they have counted on from the subject people of Poland, France, Eastern Europe and Russia? Not much, and they wouldn't have forgotten about the millions who'd been enslaved and often killed by their German overlords. It would have been a perfect recipe for something like the Russian Revolution.

It wouldn't have happened right away, of course, but eventually it would definitely have happened.

Assuming, of course, that the whole thing didn't break apart after Hitler's death with his surviving henchmen each claiming a portion, following the example of Alexander's generals.

[Liam]

Retributar and Bromley make good points..

To add:

I find that people launch Barbarossa too late, Spring of 1941 with the weather breaking is the best time. This way you avoid facing the Siberian Transfer and you are able to make good on the Clear Weather.

You'll only face one Harsh Winter and you know when it's comming, it's historical, and it's best to back up stay close to supply if you suspect thet enemy is strong and poised for a counter attack.

In SC2 which was not as true in SC1, you have a lot of ability to maneuver and a lot of ability to flank the enemy. German's suffer from poor Supply and that is something the Russians will attempt to use against you, so each time you take a city and get the strength up to 5 you'll find that a key source to strike deeper into Mother Russia. Partisans are also a real pest and you get them in the prippet marshes, South of Leningrad, Near Riga... Garrison your cities with Minors... partisans knock down your city supply level and damage your frontline efforts, real campaign killer. Garrison the regions they rise in

Air Power is real important in Russia since a good opponent will entrench, fortify and plant his troops in Mountains, behind rivers, in Forests. Use the Luftwaffe to make bridgeheads. Also use it on Cities. 4 or 5 Air Units will reduce the time you're sieging a great deal.

It is very very hard to get all of THE USSR. I've only had one game where a guy played it out, JollyGuy until the last man. Urals fell in 1945. You really don't have to defeat all of the USSR, only destroy all of it's Power, Cut off the Caucasus, Stalingrad, Murmansk... And go and finish of the UK...Though it may seem titanic, remeber every unit you build and every thing you do must be aimed toward a lot of Germans. You need 5 or 6 HQs, 30-35 Units... against a skilled Russian, unless of course you storm the Guy...

Long range Fighters are great. As are Infantry Weapons 3, AntiTank 3. Heavy Tanks are also very powerful units especially in certian situations. Make sure to have maxed out your research and despite me mentioning the time to invade, invade when you're ready

Originally posted by tunatamaker:

Okay thanks for help. Conquering Leningrad is tuff though.

[n0kn0k]

JJ Interesting discussion But we're de-railing this topic, hehe.

But do take notice of the nature of mankind, and the timeframe where the Roman Empire was set in.

Mankind tends to easily "forget" things from the past over a few generations, and sometime even years. That's how the Roman Empire was created also. Just look at how they subjugated Gaul, Spain and Macedonia. It took a few generations and a few bloody uprisings. But eventually they became Romanized and settled down.

I can easily imagine how much faster that would have happened with modern communication tools. If they would have won, they would surely had a descent chance to pacify regions by doing some concessions. So as JJR said, thank god for the Yanks, Commies, Brittish and Canadians.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

JJ Interesting discussion But we're de-railing this topic, hehe. ...

Oh, ain't that the way it always is. Okay, I've got my helmet on and I'm ducking.

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

...

But do take notice of the nature of mankind, and the timeframe where the Roman Empire was set in.

Mankind tends to easily "forget" things from the past over a few generations, and sometime even years. That's how the Roman Empire was created also. Just look at how they subjugated Gaul, Spain and Macedonia. It took a few generations and a few bloody uprisings. But eventually they became Romanized and settled down.

With the Romans, Greece always retained a lot of it's own culture, for example, not allowing gladitorial games or other Roman blood sports. The Britons, after several protracted and very bloody uprisings, became so thoroughly Romanized that they begged to have the legions kept in their land as protection against the non-Romanized neighbors as well as the early Viking raiders. In his History Of The English Speaking People, Winston Churchill starts off by saying the happiest time in British history would probably have been between 200-500 A. D., when the land enjoyed peace, harmony and prosperity under the Roman Empire. I was really knocked over when I read that, many years ago, considering who the author was.

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

...

I can easily imagine how much faster that would have happened with modern communication tools. If they would have won, they would surely had a descent chance to pacify regions by doing some concessions. So as JJR said, thank god for the Yanks, Commies, Brittish and Canadians.

Agreed, but the keyword here is concessions, the most basic of which would have been to stop treating countless millions of people as subhumans.

That wouldn't have been possible while Hitler was alive, of course. I don't think any of his henchmen, I mean, those with actual power, including Heinrich Himmler, believed any of that. Sure, they might well have been anti-Semites and probably disliked non-Germans, but at the core of it all was Hitler's irrational mania. Those who were equally livid about the untermensch, and especially those who kept pushing to destroy them, were either out of the picture by the middle of the war, or vehemently disliked by those right under Hitler, and their views would not have dominated. The Final Solution would have been phased out, I'm sure, for the simple reason that it was a drain and nothing else. Tragically, if the Nazis had won, this might not have happened till about 15,000,000 people, Jews and non-Jews alike, had been caught up in the slaughterhouse.

Speculation on what would have happened if the Axis would have remained in existence is always interesting. I'm sure it's possible that, if even reasonably sensible leaders had succeeded Hitler, the Reich might well have carried through to the present day, but I'm also sure it would have been of a much less mindlessly vicious and racially intolerant variety.

[Liam]

Jersey John:

as with many Empires starting out with brutality and oppression in the end the only way to rule is to treat each one of your Subjects Fairly. You will lose them by killing them all off or by forcing them to adopt your culture. One could say that Charlmagne -SP? was not unlike this? Slaughtering anyone who did not convert to the rightful Faith

no way you can kill all of them, so you will join them. I can see if the Axis had survived the war it would have been done politically taking a huge tract of Euro-Russia and then likely making concessions, like returning Much of France... Perhaps it would've been the Rival SuperPower today to the USA... No reason why it's not possible, with their early military successes, just not cashed in on. Like a Vegas Gambler who doesn't quit starting with 5k and having 5 Million... Just bets it all back wanting to Bust Vegas, something you can never do, take the Whole of the World down in one go!

[arado234]

I think we are all missing the main point.People have been killing and enslaving each other since the dawn of man and his ability to organise.The methods have just gotten more brutal over the centuries.Let us not forget the crusades and what they did to the natives of the americas(forcing their beliefs on them),who were also busy killing and enslaving eachother.If people are still capable of commiting mass genocide today(africa)after what the nazis did,what does that say about the human race?

[Retributar]

From arado234

"what does that say about the human race? "

What it say's is that we are not functioning the way that we were intended to function!, Imperfection & Outside influence's are commandeering/Taking us over...as it did to the Nazis!.

God's creation is NOT Imperfect!,...however,...degeneration of mankind with the passage of time [imperfection Escalates],...as well as Demonic Influence's...are responsible for what we are...where we are now!.

Check 'The Lords Prayer!"...it stand's there to tell us that this situational mess that we presently are in will ultimately be resolved!.

I hate preaching!,...and refrain most of the time from doing so!...but in a moment of extreme weakness,...as i am weak myself,...i must say something...sometimes!.

I symphatize and feel for your concern's,...as it concern's me as well!.

[ March 09, 2007, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]