MPP calculation with convoys

[coda]

I have been wondering how the convoys for norway, sweden, and iraq work if those countries are conquered.

For example, Norway will give Germany 20 mpps/turn by convoy while it is neutral. If Germany invades, then it has 3 cities + 1 mine all at 50%. That would be (3*5 + 1*2*5) 25 mpps per turn.

Does the convoy mpps come from this, so the german calculation for norway would be:

25 Mpps - 20 for convoy

+20 for norway convoy (if ports/no subs ok)

Or are the convoy mpps free, so you would get

25 Mpps

+20 for norway convoy (if ports/no subs ok)

If it is the first case, there isn't much value in taking norway. If it is the second, it will double your income.

I am assuming whatever answer applies here also applies to sweden, canada, iraq.

The US convoys show the second case, but maybe that is different?

BTW, do the capitals of minor countries produce 2Mpps verses the normal 1Mpp, or is this just for major countries?

[ September 07, 2006, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: coda ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Coda, good post & question. Where is your cousin, Yoda?

[Scook]

From my calculations, you get MPP for both owning the country, and getting the convoys. Since there is no diplo hit for taking Norway for either side, as Axis I prefer having it in my hands. This makes me lean towards gettins Sweden as a minor ally. When you take Leningrad (not if) the land link pumps up all the snowy countries. I remember a turn getting 80 MPP from my convoys from just Sweden and Norway. It was a serious blow having Kiel bombed, going from 500 MPP to around 400 a turn.

[Terif]

Sorry Scook, this is not correct.

To clarify it a bit:

Germany only gets mpps from the convoy and no additional mpps from Norway and Sweden (Convoys have the purpose to transport the ressources to the home country). Same for UK concerning Norway (Sweden has no UK convois, so for this country they get the full 30 mpps if they conquer/liberate it).

The Norway convoy transports max 50% of the mpps for both UK and Germany (depending on the season Summer-Winter). Sweden convoy is 60%. So in Summer Norway gives 15mpps and Sweden 18 mpps for Germany.

If they are conquered and with land connection via Finland to Berlin, ressources go up to 8.

So Norway convoy is now max 24 mpps and Sweden 29 mpps.

Same goes for the other countries with convoys like Canada, Iraq etc.

[coda]

So any country without a convoy assigned you get full mpps, but countries with a convoy you only get the convoy value?

Interesting, so there is no benefit to conquering Sweden or norway as long as they stay above 0% and 20% pro axis. Actually it is worse until you have a land connection since 50% of 25 is 12, which is less than the 20 you would get if neutral. Is this right?

[Edwin P.]

One benefit to taking Norway is that you can use it as a submarine base to threaten the lend lease convoy routes to Soviet Russia, and by stationing an Air unit in Norway you may be able to surprise the British Navy.

[Scook]

I have spent hours in a self multi-play game to test the results. Terif is 100% spot on. I bow to your knowledge, and submit to your understanding of SC and SC2.

Now I do have a question. MPP's that are cut off are still added to your total? I come up with a difference of 10-13 MPP's when I cut off Scandinavia, which is the difference if I leave Helsinki and Leningrad in the German MPP total. Subtracting those amounts make all numbers match up.

[Terif]

@Scook:

Normal mpp income will always find its way home - cutting of reduces it only to strength 5, but these 5 (x ressource value) still are added to the total.

Only convois can be stoped by bombing the source or destination port out of order. So if you e.g. bomb Kiel port below 5 the scandianvian convois will stop (and most allied players do this sooner or later - so Germany usually never gets mpps from Skandinavia after 1941... ).

@Coda:

Germany gets the same amount from Norway/Sweden in any case as long as there is no land connection to Berlin. The convois send the same amount (up to 50/60% in summer of the ressources) of mpps - i.e. you will get max 18 mpps for Sweden if it is neutral or conquered by Germany.

[Scook]

@ Terif

Then I have a problem matching the end of turn number for MPPs. I have taken all the values Germany owns on the map, then subtract what they won't get (ie: Norway & Sweden). I keep coming up with a difference of 10-11 MPPs per turn. This isn't much, but with 14.5 turns a year, this is most of an army or a corps. I can provide you with my Excel data, the save game I have, and a lengthy explanation of what I am looking for and looking at.

[Terif]

I guess this is an issue not related to Scandinavia, but more probably France :

If you conquer a ressource of a major nation, then the Industry Tech level of that nation applies when calculating the mpps. So the french mine + 3 cities does not give you 6x8=48 mpps, but only 6x8x0.8=38 mpps (French IT is 80%). So difference is 10 mpps, which is exactly your amount .

Same applies if you e.g. conquer british ressources, since UK also starts with 80% IT.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yoda verifies MMP charts in the comfort of his Swamp.

[hellraiser]

"If you conquer a ressource of a major nation, then the Industry Tech level of that nation applies when calculating the mpps."

Bleah, so IT is still useless to research for Germany.

[Terif]

Yep, IT only increases the home country ressources, not the conquered ones - so IT is only useful for Russia and USA

[Hopper]

The issue with teleporting MPP’s has always bugged me. Take Iceland for example, once they go Allied all of their MPP’s are magically teleported to England and their IT is at 100%. So Iceland’s capital (10 MPP’s) is out producing Manchester (8 MPP’s). Huh? If any country’s IT should be 100%, in 1940, shouldn’t it be England’s? Shouldn’t there be a convoy script set up with Iceland? Not only would this solve the teleporting MPP’s but would also make another target for U-boats, which would better simulate the difficulty of protecting ALL of England’s convoys before the US enters the war.

Now I’m not just picking on Iceland, Iraq is fairly easy to go Axis only this time if there isn’t a land bridge through Turkey or Egypt those MPP’s teleport back to Berlin. If no land bridge exists shouldn’t the Axis player be forced to control Syria as well and have a convoy script set up? This would show how the MPP’s are getting to Europe and give the Allies opportunities to bomb or bombard the port and disrupt the flow of MPP’s.

Also I think Italy should have a convoy setup in North Africa in addition to the Malta Effect, only this will show the MPP collection of existing an conquered territories.

Now I realize SC2 is abstract in the supply and MPP’s model but I really think a few tweaks could make a much more realistic and strategic orientated game. Of course the flip side is you’ll have a thousand convoy routes running all over the map…

Any thoughts?

[Scook]

Thank you, that is the entire answer. Now numbers work out perfectly. Does the IT modifier work for your Allied minors, namely Hungary and Romania? It seems to me Germany gets more than 11 MPP from each IT increase.

Originally posted by Terif:

I guess this is an issue not related to Scandinavia, but more probably France :

If you conquer a ressource of a major nation, then the Industry Tech level of that nation applies when calculating the mpps. So the french mine + 3 cities does not give you 6x8=48 mpps, but only 6x8x0.8=38 mpps (French IT is 80%). So difference is 10 mpps, which is exactly your amount .

Same applies if you e.g. conquer british ressources, since UK also starts with 80% IT.

[Terif]

IT modifier is only for the german home country and doesn´t influence Hungary, Romania etc.

So every german IT level increases the income by exactly 11 mpps (10% from 110 base mpps) as long as all ressources are at full strength. So depending on your luck an investment there can pay off - especially in long games - but most likely will not.. . Usually Germany has better things to research and these few mpps make no real difference, which makes IT one of the least important techs for Germany.