AAR, Terif vs. Jollyguy; The Egyptian Gambit

[Terif]

@Hellraiser:

Just one note: My Axis DID take London - not the other way round - so this game could continue since otherwise it would have been game over for Allies.

Anyway, in the future everyone now knows how to counter an Egypt gambit and the one who does it, has to expect Axis to use it against him if he still goes down this road.

Emptying England is unhistoric, so as a result there is no reason Axis can´t also follow the equally unhistoric path of leaving London to Allies - which can be considered forcing a peace treaty on UK with leaving a part of the Isle under british administration, but so the exile government in Egypt won´t get any official support any more...in the end perhaps it is not that unhistoric at all.. .

P.S: Scriping in general/Smolensk:

Somewhere has to be the boundary/trigger, if not Smolensk then another city or territory and then this trigger would be avoided instead until the other side is ready.

Egypt is a fine example - when the triggers got changed in one of the patches, only the places Axis avoid till they are ready got shifted to the new triggers...

[ February 23, 2007, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Terif]

AAR update:

During winter 1941/42 both sides consolidated their positions: Allies integrated the last parts of Middle East into their territory. Meanwhile Axis liberated Istanbul - establishing there a defence perimeter – cleaned Leningrad from the last resistance, sinking both russian cruisers in the process and advanced deeper via Moskov into Russia, taking Archangel and Vologda in the icy north.

In the Atlantic Axis fleets intensified their naval blockade of North America – not even canadian shipping comes through now, all 55 mpps destined for UK get sunk every turn by Axis wolfpacks.

In spring 1942 strong russian forces probed the defences of Axis near Moskov, but retreated after a short skirmish. Obviously the russian commander learned from previous experiences and didn´t follow the withdrawing Axis sentinels into the prepared trap but instead retreated his troops immediately after the assault – otherwise it would have costed him his entire forces there .

We are now in June/July 1942 and Summer offensive is about to start – both sides standing in full force against each other between Gorky in the north till Odessa in the south...

[Colin I]

Terif,

If there is a single trigger then its easy to circumvent, agreed shifting it doesn't really help. Multiple triggers with boolean logic and some randomness should help.

If Axis take V or W or (X + Y but not Z) then event may trigger. If event is possible chance is 0-40% (random factor) + (20% if V true) + (10% if W is true) etc. for each turn. For each turn in a row even is possible increase chance by 5%.

They can still be broken but its much harder to base a foolproof plan on avoiding an expected trigger. And the complexity is only in the event programming, not the playability.

[Terif]

@Colin:

This is something for Hubert - at least with the current system it is not possible...perhaps in SC3

[Terif]

AAR sequel:

German fighters stationed near Odessa are just finished with their briefing for the coming summer offensive when US bombers were spotted over Istanbul, flying towards the romanian oilfields without figher escort...perfect last training opportunity for the german aces before the real combat and so they practice a bit at the US clay pigeons without having to fear own losses .

At July 12, 1942 the german summer offensive operation „Hammerschlag“ starts:

At dawn the russian soldiers - still sleeping in their beds at the fortress chain from Odessa to Kharkov – hear a tubby grumble in the air...when suddenly tens of thousands of dive bombers and fighters descend from the clouds and all hell breaks loose in the area between Odessa and Kharkov...

After the ground bombardment by 9 airfleets, 2 dozen heavy german ground units positioned just outside enemy spotting range, simultaneously go into a full speed charge to overrun the demoralized survivors of the firestorm – in many big pockets including Kharkov, several russian armies, corps and even an engineer brigade surrender immediately, their fortifications get stormed and destroyed without much resistance. In Blitzkrieg tactic a big encirclement area around Odessa and Sevastopol is created by multiple fast Panzerarmies that push forward deep into enemy territory towards Rostov.

[n0kn0k]

I'd love to see a picture of that Terif

[Terif]

AAR:

Operation „Hammerschlag“ proves to be a huge success – even exceeding the most optimistic expectations of the general staff:

Tales of the few survivors from Kharkov about what happened there, obviously set the remaining russian soldiers into a pure state of panic and they start to stampede into every direction, just to escape the slaughter....

After the general russian withdrawl from Gorky, Voronezh, Odessa and the mines, german units occupy the empty positions, destroy another 4 fortifications east of Kharkov and prepare for the final assault on Rostov.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Terif:

After the ground bombardment by 9 airfleets, 2 dozen heavy german ground units positioned just outside enemy spotting range, simultaneously go into a full speed charge

That's the only way to take Russia against a good player, I think : buy all airfleets you can, put all grounds troops together, smash hard at Krakhov and keep hitting all the way to Leningrad.

There is absolutely nothing the Allied can do against those airplanes, so you can pick your targets and kill the key-point Russian troops where you want : airplanes are overpowered.

Perhaps the Allied should be able to place UK fighters in Russia, that should make a difference. But even that is probably not enough : you can buy a whole lot of airplanes with the Axis.

[Terif]

There are a lot of things Allies can do against those airplanes (BTW: they even start with more air than Axis...) . Airfleets only have a supportive role in SC2 and without sufficient ground forces are worth nothing - only when using them as part of the combined arms they have their value. In the end they are just as they should be (even pretty historic...) and certainly not overpowered - in fact, ground units are much more powerful and cost efficient than airfleets for itself.

Not for nothing one of the biggest beginners mistake is to overestimate his air and trying only to win with them - till they get simply overrun by enemy ground forces .

Airfleets are nice to have, but first priority is to have built sufficient ground troops before you can put money into air. Air is pretty expensive to maintain, another huge beginner mistake is to use them as anti-ship weapons...and then they wonder why they have no mpps left to build ground troops for Barbarossa...

Summary:

Airfleets are useful to prepare the battlefield before major offensives and for special operations - their main purpose is support of the ground forces.

How it is now, they are pretty well balanced with the other branches of military service: buy too many compared to your other forces and you will simply be overrun, buy not enough if you have enhanced your other military and your ground troops will lack the necessary airsupport and pay dearly for it sooner or later. Just how it was in history and how it should be in the game .

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Terif:

ground units are much more powerful and cost efficient than airfleets for itself.

Yes, if you calculate the MPP cost and the damage they do, they're of course worse then ground troops.

But you can concentrate for much better with them : you can't attack a fort with 9 ground troops, but you can attack it with 6 plus 3 airplanes. And they scout alot better. And you can relocate them easily.

But the thing that overpowers them is the experience. By the time the Germans get to Kharkov, they can have 3 planes with 3-4 stars. That's alot of punch, they can basically rip through any spot they want.

IMHO the experience is too big of a factor with the planes or too little for ground troops.

[Terif]

Airplanes have their advantages and disadvantages - key is to use them right as the attacker and as defender know how to counter them.

E.g. both my Axis defence against western Allies with their absolute air superiority as well as my russian defence against Axis needs no airfleets and still makes the use of air much more expensive for the enemy than for my defending units .

Since you are mainly playing the AI - here airfleets may in deed be king since the AI is only sitting at the wrong places with the wrong units just to be killed... .

But an able human player can counter them. Experience is also not a real issue, makes them a bit more effective, but till you get such experience levels you first have to invest hundreds of mpps for the lost strength points till they get them...and 2 or 3 real airbattles and the experience is gone as well as for ground troops in ground battles . All in all, airfleets are just right how they are .

[Terif]

AAR:

September 1942 - The battle of Stalingrad starts after Rostov has been conquered the month before:

German units just filled the pocket behind the river between Rostov and Stalingrad completely with units when Russia starts its counterattack supported by 2 UK airfleet and Jet level 2 russian fighters. With the help of 2 droped Paratroopers Russia destroys 2 german tanks + a corps and crosses the river between the enemy lines...

The german response is devastating: all Paratroopers killed immediately, together with 2 russian armies and 3 corps. Heavy airbattles: 2 UK AFs and 3 russian ones on the allied side against the 9 Axis airfleets. Axis forces build a 2-3 tiles deep unit wall from Rostov till nearly Kuybyshev and Kasan in the north .

[ February 25, 2007, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Jollyguy]

Yes, the brave Russians launched Operation galchsremmah, which is Hammerschlag spelled backwards. This clever reverse spelling of the Wehrmacht's previous operation confused the German cryptographers, known for strict reliance on order and logic, and who were at least expecting Operation rschglammerha, which is Hammerschlag all jumbled up.

Advance code breaking aside, the Russians felt they needed to launch an attack around Stalingrad to buy time, otherwise their new capital would have been occupied before Uncle Joe even had time to settle in and plan his next pogrom! So, the Russians did receive worse than they gave, but did buy time, as it is now the end of September. They are behind that riverline running from Stalingrad north.

At the same time the RAF was interested to discover that an HQ could operate to the easternmost Turkish city, and then maintain a supply of ten several hexes into Russia proper. So upgraded Spitfires moved up there, and were in the vanguard of the attack for operation galershmmerac, or whatever it was jumbled up. The RAF also shared with the Russian scientists how to improve their three fighters, which are also up to level 2 now.

Meanwhile, out West, Roosevelt has been rolling about his war room in his favorite wheelchair, and has finally approved a Top Secret plan, so the Americans are close to shipping out. The question is will it be too little to late? Will Uncle Joe get pushed so far east that he himself ends up imprisoned with all those millions he's jailed in Siberia over the years? Considering the calibre of my opponent I fear Uncle Joe's time is limited, but only time will tell for sure.

Bob

[arado234]

Jollyguy i bet terif has a sub ambush just waiting for you.

[Terif]

Russian commanders in the field get confused by the spelling babel of their offensive and shoot their cannons reverse too – so half of the russian main forces blow up themselves while german tanks remove the rest of the desorientated ones .

In the second turn of the russian babel, Stalingrad gets conquered and the tank inside destroyed amongst others...a last ill advised russian offense from Kuybyshev with all they had left there ended in the total annihilation of the northern russian combat group: 3 german corps get destroyed, in return Russia looses tank, 4 armies and 2 corps....german forces break through and cross the river...cutting off further red forces...finally reaching 2 russian airfleets in the rear... one of them gets destroyed by a german army and corps, the other one barely survives at str 2. Russian main forces in the north nearly completely wiped out...german spearhead commanders report about more russian HQs than combat units around Kuybyshev .

[jon_j_rambo]

The Towel of Babel, the most profound proof of the Bible.

[Jollyguy]

Well, there’s no doubt that Terif is getting the better of me and will probably prevail. But the interesting thing is that he’s pretty beat up too. He took Stalingrad and pushed east, but then had to pause and repair and move his HQ’s up rather than dividing the board. Weather favored him as he got clear days, with the one mud turn in September, 1942, happening on my turn not his, allowing him to bring his airpower to bear during his turns. Had the weather gone my way the order of battle would look somewhat different.

Experience being the best teacher, were I to have the past X number of turns over I wouldn’t have defended the Dnieper line, and would have fallen back to Rostov and Stalingrad for a traditional defense. Actually, that was probably the key mistake of mine in our game. My early game was good and I caught him by surprise, but my follow through was not ideal. But live and learn.

IMO the Egyptian Gambit is a good option to keep in mind as it’s a nice change of pace on otherwise stale cookie-cutter matches, with it's main value being to keep your opponent guessing for the next game. It’s also interesting to see the depth and variable playability of the game. I mean English fighters in the Caucusses! I’m sure Terif will post some screenshots…wait until you see the Middle East, it will be a parking lot of cement soon.

What will happen is that Terif will divide Russia, but I will still have substantial forces both north and south. The Russian will also still have Turkey and Iraq at 50%, an economic shot-in-the-arm they usually don’t have. Meanwhile, the expected Western Allied plan is in motion and will become apparent soon.

Bob

[Terif]

Since Ural has been built out to an at the moment impregnable fortress and Allies are still ahead in war production, Axis turns south first to conquer the ressource rich area...

Spring 1943 now sees the largest gathering of forces in history around Caucasus on both sides:

Millions of Axis soldiers, in more than 40 units narrow down the circle around Grozny where russian units established a heavily armed and entrenched 3 tile deep defence position.

With the first summer turns the hell on earth got unleashed and the sky above the caucasian mountains get dark from fighters of both sides in the air... 9 Axis airfleets are battling against 8 allied ones (2 UK, 4 US, 2 russian), all sides fighting with Jets 3 and high LongRange....within the first days of this historic battle, tens of thousands of aircraft go down shattered on the ground between the soldiers on the ground, that are fighting for every inch of ground...ruins and explosions everywhere...

After a bloody battle, Grozny falls to Axis and finally in June 1943 german high command decides the time is ready to start the final stage of operation „Hinkelstein“:

Transport machines get loaded with the elite of the german forces, trained for this day since the last 4 years – and while every airfleet in combat shape provides aircover, russian soldiers get completely surprised by the 40.000 paratrooper landing behind the lines near Baku, annihilating a complete russian airfleet on the ground....soon after establishing connection with the ground forces outflanking the defenders in the mountains by going the clear tile route southeast, conquering an oilfield in the process and laying siege to Baku.

Meantime in the Atlantic an equally large battle, but here at sea is looming ahead...US cruisers and carriers, demonstrating Gun Laying Radar level 2 and Anti-Sumarine Warfare level 3 sink one of the german guardian wolfpacks on the canadian convoy route...new built allied subs accompanied the fleet for spotting purposes....but Axis shipyards all over the coasts have been busy too...executing an extensive ship and sub building program during the last years of the war....since now it is clear from where the enemy is approaching, all italian and german fleets in their ports get called to battlestations, moving full speed towards the anticipated combat zone and prepare for battle...

[Jollyguy]

Operation Hencklestein! Where does Terif come up with these, I can’t keep up! Oh, the trusty ol’ Henckle transport plane. Okay.

Well, IMO the Allies (me) will lose this game. But let me tell you, it has been one of the more interesting games I’ve played. And also IMO it took someone of Terif’s caliber to pull it off from the Axis side, and someone of my lesser experience to make some fundamental mistakes that he could capitalize on.

The Allies could probably limp into 1945 on this one, which is interesting in off itself, but I may throw in the towel soon. Terif’s attack in the Caucusses was pretty robust, and although he took some damage too, remember, I can’t place additional Russian units down there as I’m cutoff, so each brave Russian unit that dies for the Fatherland can’t be replaced, at least not at the southern front.

In hindsight, and for those contemplating an Egyptian Gambit, I would advise you re-read this AAR because I did some things right, but also consider the following:

1) Give consideration to leaving a garrison force and probably 40% of the RN around England. You would probably still get Sea Lion’ed, but you would slow the Axis down, and there’s a chance that the US forces could arrive just in time to save the day and be able to clear a path to London. If not, you would still pin down the Axis for a longer period and who knows, maybe keep a toe-hold up north at Scapa Flow. I would also leave a corp in Norway, make the Axis pay for dislodging you. All-in-all I went totally all-in around Egypt, and in hindsight had too many units down there that could have served as rear-guards elsewhere.

2) In 1.06 it’s going to be harder to take Turkey, so have your Russians plan accordingly if this becomes an option.

3) Utilize a standard defense in Russia. In our game it felt good to hold the Dnieper Line for an extended period and collect those mpps, but I obviously overstayed my welcome and paid for it.

4) Something interesting happens with Turkey after the Russians take it and even though its cutoff from the (third) Russian capita...the cities stay at 8, I guess because they’re tracing to the English capital in Egypt? This seems to an exception to the uncooperative Ally aspect of the Allies. The Russian cities and resource hexes reduce by ½, but not so in Turkey. Keeping that in mind, and also keeping in mind not to waste units in an upfront defense, that means the Russians have a pretty good economic and unit base even after losing Stalingrad and getting cut in half. I lost too many units defending Stalingrad, which in hindsight I wouldn’t do again. And also, perhaps the Russian engineer could build fortifications in advance in the Caucusses.

5) Also, remember that your English HQ can move several hexes into Russia and maintain a supply of ten. I self-hotseated this, and the effect wears off about four or five hexes into Russia, where supply drops to 5.

6) I had the Americans research first and build units second. In hindsight I would have done the reverse or maybe better, mix it up, as like I said, they might be able to save the day in England or hold onto a toe-hold, either in England or perhaps Norway. At the very least they would burn-up valuable Axis time.

7) Another option might be a modified Egyptian Gambit. Perhaps the Brits do nothing more than erect two fortifications in front of Alexandria while keeping a share of their forces at Home. Believe me, absent a full commitment of Axis air, those fortifications would be a tough nut to crack. If the Axis did breakthrough the Brits could evacuate, knowing that they consumed time and probably upset the Axis timetable and probably threw Barbarossa off balance.

I still feel the Egyptian Gambit is a viable option if done correctly. And remember, you probably only get one bite at the apple, as your opponent won’t be fooled the next game. If nothing else it would keep your (regular) opponents guessing as to what strategy you would employ the next time around.

Bob

[Terif]

A few comments/corrections:

- Western Allies and Russia beeing uncooperative concerns only their home countries, not conquered ones. I.e. if Russia conquers countries (be it in the Middle East, Balkan or Scandinavia), then UK and USA can use them too as supply points and for operating and these countries can also be connected to a UK capital to receive full supply.

- Russia can still place new/rebuilt units in Caucasus even if it gets cut off, which makes it no real problem if Russia gets cut in two.

Egyptian gambit:

Like always it depends on the (Axis) opponent if it is a viable option – against an able player it is surely not....and certainly not against me since in future games I will not hestitate to Sealion England and put a quick end to the spook as now everyone is forwarned and knows what he has to expect when he tries to go this way .

Just happened to Rambo who tried an improved Egyptian gambit after he read the AAR: built engineer as one of the first units, moved 2/3 of the Royal Navy to the Med/Egypt but kept a few ground units and some ships in England so all 3 cities were occupied...only this time my Axis just sealioned England immediately and so Allies were forced to surrender already in October 1940....and peace ruled in Europe again .

[Terif]

AAR:

Operation „Hinkelstein“ proved to be a big success, even with 30.000 men lost of the Paratroopers that jumped behind the frontline: subsequently the russian mountain fortresses got weared down by attacks from various directions and cut off from retreat possibilities, half of the russian defending units went into Axis POW camps...endless rows of war prisoners march north into their camps while victorious german Panzer units under Rommel move past by them towards the hot combat zone...at the end of the day only 3 russian HQs and 6 last russian units survived the brutal slaughter, the last UK bomber also had to bite the dust....the gates to Turkey and Iraq are wide open now... .

Allied diplomats have already been received to negotiate about unconditional surrender of the Allied forces...

[jon_j_rambo]

Herr Terif is at it again. It's a damn good thing he wasn't running the show back in '39, or we'd all be speaking & saluting towards Berlin. Is Terif the grandson of Manstein or the Kaiser? Was his birthright stolen, because he has seemed to reconcile things to the Fatherland...by his duty.

Legend salutes Terif

[Terif]

The war is over....Allies surrendered in July 1943 after their main defence lines had been broken in Caucasus.

Losses during the war:

UK: 25 land units, 3 air, 7 ships

Russia: 37 land, 2 air, 2 cruiser

Germany: 16 land, 1 sub + 1 cruiser

USA and Italy were never involved in ground battles, Italians only loss: 1 cruiser

Here a few screenshots, taken during the war :

War of Egypt during its hot phase:

Both sides starting to entrench, conducting pure airwar for the next months:

The desert at the end of war (units hidden), vanished under million tons of concrete...

Axis preparations for operation „Hammerschlag“, the summer offensive against the russian heart of Kharkov/Rostov:

The scenery 2 turns later:

When Axis forces arrive at Stalingrad, Russia starts its ultimately failed operation „galchsremmah“:

After destruction of the 7 now missing russian attackers, Axis retreat to defensive postions and build a phalanx battle row:

[ March 02, 2007, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Terif]

Conquest of Stalingrad...lots of damaged units...

Volga defence broken, Kuybyshev and Kazan about to fall:

Preparing the assault against Caucasus:

The bloody battle has begun...

The end of war after the successful operation „Hinkelstein“, last russian resistance beared down:

Meanwhile in the west – Axis fleet prepared for a last huge battle that never came...

[Jollyguy]

Wow, interesting screen shots. Also interesting to see how beat up the Axis was at several points in the war, and that had I exhibited better generalship…fallen back at times rather than leaning into punches, that perhaps the war would have turned out differently or maybe still be hanging in the balance. Also interesting to see the Middle East look like a parking lot. There would be no room for the poor camels!

Interesting to see Terif’s naval order of battle around Casablanca and The Rock. I might have won that engagement. The entire USN was at level 2 gun laying radar and level 3 anti-sub. Let me tell you, level 3 anti-sub against level 1 subs, it’s a total mismatch, when I tangled with one of Terif’s U-boats a couple turns earlier it visited Davy Jones locker real fast. In addition to the US sub I had two RN subs that had arrived a couple turns earlier, and two, level 1 gun laying radar RN battleships that had just arrived, with two level 1 cruisers to follow, then two upgraded RN carriers to follow that. He had the port to resupply though, so it would have been bloody.

Anyway, like I said, one of my more interesting games I’ve played, and a game that also showed off the depth of SC 2. The game flexed it’s capabilities to handle a very anomalous strategy and did it well. Each morning and evening I eagerly looked forward to the next turn, and I think Terif did too, which happens when you try something out of the box that results in uncertain results. Like I’ve said, this was one of the more enjoyable games I’ve played, and one in which I’m already employing what I’ve learned in our next match which is ongoing, and one which just started, a 1.06 game.

Bob