Z-Plan & Brest-Litovsk Aftermath

[JerseyJohn]

Copied from Scenario Forum:

Brest-Litovsk Aftermath and Z Plans

Well, the time has come for me to start doing something with the editor. In the original SC I made a modest contribution with some scenarios that at least a few people enjoyed and will try to do the same now with it’s successor.

All thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

Brest-Litovsk Aftermath 1930:

As many of you know, in 1918 Germany had the opportunity to make peace with Britain and France on the condition that it withdraw from Belgium and France and agree to an adjustment of borders. France wanted the return of Alsace and Lorain but in return Imperial Germany would keep everything it had won in the east against Russia. This would have included all of Poland and vast stretches of Belorussia. Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and the Ukraine would have been recognized as German protectorates with the Ottoman Empire ceding it’s Middle East territories lost during the campaigns, but receiving the southern Caucasus.

Going on the assumption that the Austro-Hungarian Empire would have fallen apart as the war ended, I’m keeping the Central Europe and Balkan boundaries as they stand in Hubert’s basic campaign map.

The scenario would call for the creation of a new country: Ukrainia. I’d appreciate any suggestions on how to do this.

I’m also planning to create an island in the southern Atlantic near the British convoy arrows labeled, German West Africa that would serve as a naval and air base. It’s an abstraction, of course, but I want to add the colonial factor without expanding the map. Part of the peace package would have been to return some or all of the German African colonies.

With the war starting in 1930 and a possible end in 1940, all tech will be set at zero for the major countries with the highest research potential being USA-Germany-UK-France-Italy-USSR and chits assigned accordingly.

Germany, in this case, will still be Imperial. Russia will be the USSR – boundaries running N-S from Leningrad – Smolensk – Rostov – central Caucasus. Italy fascist.

Z-Plans:

Hitler, at various times and places, gave 1941-46 as the times when he’d be ready to launch his all out war.

The earliest date was given to Mussolini in 1939, and is one of the reasons Italy was so poorly prepared in 1939; the Italians thought they had another two years to get ready.

1942 and 44 were bandied about with the admiralty, the first date would have included four new Hindenburg class battleships (basically the Bismarck but incrementally larger to house 16” guns) and the second date would have included two large aircraft carriers.

The army and air force were also told that they’d be vastly expanded by 1942.

Most historians agree that the German economy couldn’t have supported the forces that Hitler promised, so I’ll add units to the production schedule instead along with an extra air fleet. Beyond that it will be Hubert’s basic 1939 FW campaign with tech changes. Germany will have increased tech in radar, rockets, naval gun radar and aircraft/long range. UK will have higher bomber and sonar tech along with increased radar. France will have higher intelligence. USSR heavy tanks higher and Italy will have better long range aircraft and improved infantry weapons. The United States, with the assumption that FDR does not get elected to a third term, will be unchanged.

-- I’m planning to have the first ready in January, meantime, any information and help people would care to offer will be appreciated.

[SeaMonkey]

JJ you are the foremost authority on these two what ifs and I can't imagine adding anything initially to these outstanding scenarios. Really enjoyed these two in SC1 and looking forward to their creation in SC2.

I remember getting waxed by RB alias "arby" in the Brest-L aft. I want a rematch...you hear me RB...HEAR ME! I'm going to kick your ever-lovin scrawny as... all over Russia.

Anyway (after chilling a bit), JJ, I will help you play and balance them.

Let me know when you are ready.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey,

Appreciated, I'll do my best to live up to your very generous post. Your comments in the old SC Forum on the original Brest-Litovsk scenario confirmed that it was an interesting variant and did more than anything else to encourage the old Z-Plan project.

-- In the original SC editor, when an HQ was deleted it meant it became unavailable. The allies wound up losing the Montgomery HQ because at the time I didn't realize that, so I'm proceeding more cautiously with the project this time. Also, it will be harder than the Z-Plan ideas because it will be necessary to represent a new country (Ukraine) and an abstraction of the German Afican colonies. Hopefully I'll have a working model by February.

-- -- I'm planning two Z-Plan scenarios.

The simplest will be 1941 . Aside from a stronger Germany and UK, mainly with units in production, the major change to Hubert's 1939 FW will be stronger Italy and USSR. Germany will have four Hindenburg class BBs in production with the Bismarck and Tirpitz completed while the UK has a slightly expanded fleet. The Maginot Line will extend half-way to the English Channel.

Instead of opting for Hitler's 1942, 44 or 46 promises, I'll compromise with this one. The second Z-Plan will be 1943 as I doubt Hitler would have been patient enough to wait longer. Building on the Z-41, this one will have increased tech for Germany, the UK, and USA. There will also be a pair of carriers in production for Germany with the Hindengurg BBs already launched. The Maginot Line will extend all the way to the coast.

The Z-plan scenarios will be adaptations of Hubert's 1939 FW, the same basic situation with the premise that it's happening 2 years later or 4 years later than it did historically. In both the assumption regarding France is that it neglects both research and modernization in favor of extending the Maginot Line. In the 1941 version Italy will be a viable power but in the 43 version it will be proportionately weaker than Britain and Germany, having peaked in 1941.

[Retributar]

JerseyJohn:

Your hypothetical Scenario is very interesting, but i would like to add one more thing that i can think of at this moment!.

Off the top of my head, i want now to relate some detail's about 'Charles DeGaulle', he had advocated for decades to have an independent Armored-Force instead of integrating Tank's into the regular Army formation's. In-Fact much of Guderian's idea's for Panzer Division's originated from 'Charles Degaulle'.

Charles Degaulle was treated like a Crack-Pot by the French High-Command, and did not permit him to employ his ideas to concentrate Armor or to vastly increase the size of the Tank Armoured Formations!. Finally, when France was in it's death-throes and all hope was lost, they finally conceded to give him command of the Armoured Unit's which he used to limited success!. He was not able to be able to have more success with so little time to prepare!.

I have already mentioned some of this information in previous posting's some way's back, so that now when i have the inclination or time for it, i will try to find that information!. Otherwise a new set of internet searches should be able to validate what i say here!.

If the French High Command had heeded De-Gaulle's idea's, the battle for France may have turned out quite differently than it did!.

[JerseyJohn]

Retributor,

There's no doubt that the French Army would have been much better if it had adapted to the theories of men like DeGaule, Fuller and Guderian, but, as you said, the French high command treated DeGaule as a quack and an outsider. He didn't have his chance till they'd already fallen into disasster. And, in peace time, he would never had had any chance at all.

My reasoning is that in building extending the Maginot Line to the sea, the static defense school of WWI thinkers, all old men even during the late 30s, would have won out.

The Army would have been designed to work with the Maginot Line, as it had been in 1940. That meant infantry equipped for defending river lines and prepared defenses and tanks seen as adjuncts to the infantry divisions. Limited attacks, using armor for support only, then digging in to await the enemy counterattack while the artillery was moved forward and also dug in along a new line.

I can't see how the French Army could have embraced a philosophy of mobile warfare while it planned a war based on defending behind the Maginot defenses; in 1940 it had no offensive plans, the Dyle Plan only called for movement into Belgium, before the Germans invaded it in force, till readhing the major rivers and, at that point it was to be digging in and fighting a new war of attrition.

-- And the thing is, a lot of high ranking German generals had almost the same way of thinking.

Hitler himself didn't see the collapse of France in 1940. What he envisioned was taking the Low Countries and wearing the British and French down till they agreed to recognize his conquests. His refinement over WWI was the nullifying of the British blockade through Soviet wheat and oil.

[Liam]

I find it interesting that Stalin was one of Hitler's best Allies during the early years. Odd that like a mad dog he should turn on a nation that made his early conquests possible. It wouldn't have been with the USSR allied with the West as it had been in WW1, at least not so easily and so low in casualties. The Italians were not on the German Boat until the French and British threw them on it. After Austria, The French in particular along with the Brits betrayed Italy. That was her Frontier...she was deployed and ready for war, "then!" Would've been worth it for the West to have Italy-France-UK to help attack Hitler..

The early Armored Doctrines of the British and French I think is lost more to small bankbooks. I think that some men may have been willing to try their new ideas. The Germans were not underfunded. And despite the dismantling of their WW1 Juggernaut, it only left them with new weapons to test in limited fashion and in other nations... Resurrengence was a definite..Meanwhile the ole rusty equipment of the French and British didn't change hastily enough. Regardless of anything the Germans really didn't have the Greatest Armor at the onset of War, just the best deployment of it. They also added good air to ground-divebombing to this alotment though they still didn't understand how to use air. Their High Command was all mixed up and hellbent on tactical air deployment. The British were ahead in this area with Strategic Deployment... Great Bombers! Great Fighters in support of air superiority. The Spitfires and even the outdated Hurricanes were excellent, I believe that the French were using P-40s? I am not dead certian on this though. the Dewitione fighter is I think the P-40 modified is it not?

Anyways, The coolest thing about a Scenario that says historically the German Empire was not dismantled is that it gives us a "big what if," the staple idea behind it is that it's no more than extension of WW1 and that's precisely what it should be, with new and improved weapons. Since a WW1 mod of SC2 would be semi-boring... The basic sprites are perfect for 1930s Warfare... The Fighters, tanks, etc... perfect

Remeber that in 1930 there was a Great Depression and it was in Europe too, despite the Maginot line, the rebuilding of the German Army, the 5 year plans in USSR.....there was not a great deal of money for war. The People were very depressed and who is to say how things may have ended up with that. Now, WW1 ending the way that it did certianly influenced this, but regardless, you would probably see more cheap units.. less techs, less income during the 1930s, lower supply reflecting lower Morale... you could say from 1929-1933 Low Low Morale, by halving all Resources, cities, ports, etc... Reflecting in the Unit Morale, and Incomes of various nations. Making all operations more difficult and more tedious.. Then you'd need great Generals and Great Victories to prove there may be a light at the end of the tunnel.

In my opinion just a twist might be neat to add...

[arado234]

The only problem i see with the 1943 z-plan is i cant see america just sitting.With the americans industrial power i think they would also have started a massive rearming program.Maybe put the industrial & production tech.settings at 3 or 4.