Infantry units

[Battlefront.com]

Doodlebug,

And no, Steve, I will not accept modern vererans recollections to prove the accuracy of the model in the same way I would no more accept the recollections of say a Spartan Hoplite. I would rather have the input from period survivors or WW1 or Korean vets whose periods are frankly more in line with the period than the modern battlefield.

OK, tossing out the obviously silly refference to Hoplites, I generally agree with your point. I have often been at odds with modern combat vets on battlefield issues when modern experiences don't neatly mesh with "period" circumstances. But sometimes things are just the same now as they were 60 years ago. Heck, sometimes they are just the same now as they were 4,000 years ago. The trick is to have the historical knowledge bank to draw from to know the difference.

I have that historical perspective. What onodoken described is totally in keeping with all that I know of the soliders of WWII. And although no expert, I would reckon that I know more about this topic than all but a handful of people on this Forum. I came out of college with a degree in History and spent most of my post college years making wargames, 5 of which were spent making WWII tactical wargames that some of you might have heard about

My point is that the basic solider today is very similar to the one of WWII in many ways, not at all in others. But the two things that is quite similar are physical abilities and likely reaction under SIMILAR combat conditions. Taking just the physical thing for now...

The average combat load has changed little in terms of weight in the last 100 years, or IIRC even the last 200. The max weight a soldier can effectively fight with is about 80 lbs. This is the same for a regular line infantryman as it is for someone like a mortarman. The difference is bulk and manueverability (trying to run with a MG42 in a building is more difficult than a MP40 even if the rest of the total weight carried is the same).

The soldier's basic combat kit weight constitutes about 2/3 rds to nearly the full Monty depending on circumstances. The basic combat kit is generally NO LESS THAN:

Rifle of some sort

Ammo for rifle

Secondary ammo (grenades, rifle grenades, etc.)

Helmet

Uniform (winter one obviously *much* heavier)

Boots

Equipment harness (belt & suspenders)

Ammo pouches

Water canteen and holder

Small bag ("breadbag")

Messkit

Some food (sometimes quite a bit)

Some personal effects (paybook, lighter, cigs, pictures, "trophies", etc.)

Shovel and carring case

Knife/bayonette w/scabbard

Personal First Aid kit

Gasmask (often ditched, but regs said were supposed to have at all time!!)

Rain/shelter half/quarter

Some extra clothing (socks, extra gloves, etc.)

And as much EXTRA ammo as can be comfortably carried.

Now, as a collector of uniforms and equipment, I can tell you first hand that this crap adds up. The above likely weighs in at more than 60 lbs. One or two of the items might be ditched, but most likely compensated for by more ammo, grenades, etc.

In any case, the notion that guys were running around with little else weighing them down but thoughts of home is not borne out. It is true that they had secondary equipment that was (generally) carried by the Platoon/Company "train", but that is not what I described above.

Modern soldiers maintain the same amount of weight (80 lbs). Light weight materials cuts down on weight, but extras like frag vests adds right back to it.

So if a modern infantry man says it is tough as crap to run through woods with full kit, it is no big leap of understanding to say that the same was true for any soldier all the way back to WWII. Also peacetime soldiers are better fed, better rested, better educated and possible in better shape than their battlefield counterparts. Often they are better trained too, at least those who have served for a while.

Bottom line... people OVER expect from their soldiers. To date I think only one veteran has challenged the physical condition modeling in CMBB, and that was by comparing WWII grunts with guys doing inter Army competition events. Not the best comparison So if people think that we got it wrong, they had better come up with more than "I think it's wrong".

The burden is not upon us to prove that CMBB is right, but for the challengers to prove it wrong. So far this has hardly even been attempted outside of complaining.

Steve