Soviet DShK better than M2 .50 MG?

[killmore]

I have couple of sources that list its armour penetration at 16mm at 500m.

Both the http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg03-r.htm and "Weapons of Red Army" claim this is a better than M2 .50

(I can't remember what penetration was for .50 - 14mm?)

There were 2000 of them available in 1941. 720 in Jan 1942 and 8440 in Jan 1944. (numbers in use - not total produced.

So can I expect soviets to have a better Armored car killer than Americans had?

[offtaskagain]

I'm pretty sure the soviet 14.5 mm MG is better in every category than Ma Deuce. ROF, armor penetration all of it. Ive never heard how reliable it is though.

[Bullethead]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

I'm pretty sure the soviet 14.5 mm MG is better in every category than Ma Deuce. ROF, armor penetration all of it. Ive never heard how reliable it is though.

You all seem to be confused. The DShK isn't 14.5mm, it's 12.7mm. The 14.5mm thing is an entirely different weapon (the ZPU series). In fact, I think it's a post-war thing because I can't find any references to it in WW2. Just the DP, the DT, the DShK, and the Maxim.

Anyway, as to the DShK (as in 12.7mm), I've shot both it and the M2. I rather like the M2 better. The DSkK has a slightly higher ROF but, because it's gas-operated, it has a slightly lower MV. Hence, slightly less penetration. This also makes it more subject to jamming, due to powder fouling blocking the little gas ports. Eventually, not enough gas gets through to fully work the action. Finally, while the DShK is significantly lighter than the M2, this lightness makes it bounce all over the place when firing, while the M2 is rock solid (this assumes both guns are properly sandbagged and all).

[ March 23, 2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Bullethead ]

[Scott B]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

You all seem to be confused. The DShK isn't 14.5mm, it's 12.7mm. The 14.5mm thing is an entirely different weapon (the ZPU series). In fact, I think it's a post-war thing because I can't find any references to it in WW2. Just the DP, the DT, the DShK, and the Maxim.

Actually, my understanding is the KPV was produced in 1944, but I've no idea how many were provided to line units prior to war's end. KPV is the HMG, KPVT is the tank mounted version, and ZPU was the 14.5mm AAMG. I was taught to remember the KPV as the 14.5mm MG as it can also stand for "Kills People and Vehicles." I think that it may well have been in the war, but nobody talks about them because they were so rare.

Not many good sources on the KPV in WWII on the net, so I've no idea what production was during the war or what units received this weapon first. It does not seem to have been at all common, although they'll likely be rather fun if they make the cut for CMBB - this is essentially the same weapon used in the Bruce Willis version of "The Jackal."

Anyway, as to the DShK (as in 12.7mm), I've shot both it and the M2. I rather like the M2 better. The DSkK has a slightly higher ROF but, because it's gas-operated, it has a slightly lower MV. Hence, slightly less penetration. This also makes it more subject to jamming, due to powder fouling blocking the little gas ports. Eventually, not enough gas gets through to fully work the action. Finally, while the DShK is significantly lighter than the M2, this lightness makes it bounce all over the place when firing, while the M2 is rock solid (this assumes both guns are properly sandbagged and all).

They fire different ammunition as well-- isn't the Russian round longer than .50 BMG? I'd be interested seeing how 12.7mm, .50 BMG and 14.5mm compare to each other; I haven't found a source that has each listed with consistent data.

Scott

[Bullethead]

Scott B said:

Actually, my understanding is the KPV was produced in 1944

Could be. I've just never been able to find anything on this family from WW2. It didn't replace the DShK in the AAMG role until post-war and I can't find any wartime AFVs that used a 14.5mm MG. So if it was anywhere, it looks like it would have been as a ground mount.

If there's no 14.5mm HMG in CMBB, at least there'll be 14.5mm ATRs. Those should tear light vehicles up quite nicely

But anyway, we agree that the DShK wasn't 14.5mm

BTW, I left a Soviet MG off the list of stuff I can find references for: the SG family of 7.62mm MMGs. Anyway...

{the M2 and DShK} fire different ammunition as well-- isn't the Russian round longer than .50 BMG? I'd be interested seeing how 12.7mm, .50 BMG and 14.5mm compare to each other; I haven't found a source that has each listed with consistent data.

The Russian and US 12.7mm rounds are pretty much the same in dimensions. This is why their performances differ only by a few percent.

[Skipper]

> Ive never heard how reliable it is though.

Modern version - very much. Aint know about 50 years back.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I believe it was just as reliable as the M2 at killing people once it hit.

Regards

Jim R.