Hiding Units

[Psyched]

Does hiding units

1) Reduce their LOS?

2) Slow their reaction times to sighted enemy units?

If not, why shouldn't you ALWAYS hide units unless there is some disadvantage in doing so?

Just wondering...

[Olle Petersson]

From the observations I've done I'd answer yes to both questions.

Another feature of hidden units is that they hold their fire, and don't shoot at enemies until they get really close.

(Hidden vehicles usually wait too long to open fire, so use caution when hiding vehicles.)

Cheers

Olle

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

Just an addition, if I may. The discipline of hiding is also dependent upon if that unit is Conscript, Green, Regular etc. I've been frustrated time and again by having raw troops suddenly firing when I didn't want them to.

As for LOS of troops when hiding, I usually have a Sharpshooter/Sniper/Taker of Potshots not hidden to be my eyes.

[Psyched]

So it's a choice that has to be made.

If I have an FO (Spotter or Sharpshooter) on a wooded ridge, if I hide him his LOS is reduced, but if I unhide him he can be more easily seen.

LOS is usually reciprocol, as I understand it, so this is dangerous. I guess that if the FO is in good cover, is a veteran or higher, or is in command of a stealthy HQ, then the odds of remaining unseen remain good.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Psyched:

So it's a choice that has to be made.

If I have an FO (Spotter or Sharpshooter) on a wooded ridge, if I hide him his LOS is reduced, but if I unhide him he can be more easily seen.

LOS is usually reciprocol, as I understand it, so this is dangerous. I guess that if the FO is in good cover, is a veteran or higher, or is in command of a stealthy HQ, then the odds of remaining unseen remain good.

I doubt it in both cases. You should do hotseat experiments.

I also don't understand what is meant by "slower reaction to enemy units". If you hide units you don't want them to react at all.

[ June 18, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[xerxes]

I use hide a lot.

MY observations.

1. The hiding unit is signficantly more difficulty to find (doh!)

2. It reduces their ability to spot. (doesn't really effect LOS, but all spotting is probabilistic and the probabilities appear to drop when hidden)

3. When the enemy approaches close enough, they will unhide, but this take ~5 seconds, sometimes just long enough to miss that critical open ground shot.

4. Hidden units at night are REALLY tough to spot.

5. Hiding units seem to make less noise. In low visibility noise spotting can be just as important as visual spotting.

6. Hidden sharpshooters generally don't unhide, and certainly won't if enemy squads are nearby.

And remember, sneaking units are happy to open fire on anything they see. Crawl if you want them to move in stealth.

[Redwolf]

Here is what I am assuming so far, based on gut feeling from playing, but not actually testing:

Spotting ability is not reduced, at least not when in houses or at the edge of woods. Maybe the angle where good spotting happens is reduced.

I agree that hidden units seem to make less noise, but that seems to be the only factor in making them easier to spot. This applies to vehicles, too.

Unhide and firing takes some annoying time, and I can't think of anything that justifies this. Surely the rifle squad has their rifle pointed to the enemy all the time, don't they? If getting out of true hide takes time, like in crawling up or something, then please, we need a seperate "hold fire" command.

I would be seriously annoyed if hidden units in fact spot worse.

[Psyched]

Xerxes

Thanks for clarifying "spotting" as compared to "LOS". My play experience has been that hiding DOES reduce SPOTTING ability. And hiding units definitely suffer a delay in acting when they suddenly spot an enemy unit.

I guess the idea is that if they are in a "hiding" position, they must take some physical action to "unhide" before they are in a "fighting" position. :confused:

[JasonC]

Anyone who has been in the field, even just in exercises with Miles gear or in a paintball war, knows that hiding reduces sighting ability. It is a simple result of going to ground. Grass and brush strongly obscures LOS when you are on your belly. It is much easier to see things if you bob up and down, from standing to crouched. (You don't stand continually or you get shot).

[JonS]

Originally posted by xerxes:

And remember, sneaking units are happy to open fire on anything they see. Crawl if you want them to move in stealth.

The rest of your points are all good, but I have doubts about the one above. I have had sneaking units - including entire platoons in one test - from opposing sides sneak through each other in flat, open terrain at midday on a fine sunny day.

Sneaking units will not open fire unless they are fired on first.

Regards

JonS

[ June 18, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Psyched]

JonS

I'm not sure I agree. I don't know how to explain the experience you describe, but in my gameplay SNEAK results in cautious movement in which the unit will STOP AND FIRE when it spots something worth firing at.

Here are my other observations as well. I don't know if they're accurate, but they are what I perceive during the course of play.

MOVE results in faster movement in which the unit will fire at something it spots but in general continues to move towards it's objective.

RUN is very rapid movement towards the objective with little regard to fire unless the danger is severe.

CRAWL is very slow but safe movement with minimal risk of being spotted.

Is this what other Members see as well, or do I have it all wrong?

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I agree that hidden units seem to make less noise, but that seems to be the only factor in making them easier to spot.

I think hiding does make a unit harder to spot. I am thinking of the moment when you fire at a unit and it "takes cover" or is 'pinned" and you can no longer see it. I think when an infantry unit is shown lying down - for whatever reason - it is harder to spot.

[Psyched]

tecumseh

I think there's little doubt that hiding a unit makes it harder to spot.

The question in my original post had to do with what penalties are assessed to a hiding unit when it tries to spot or suddenly fire at the enemy.

It appears that a hiding unit is less effective at both!

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Psyched:

tecumseh

I think there's little doubt that hiding a unit makes it harder to spot.

The question in my original post had to do with what penalties are assessed to a hiding unit when it tries to spot or suddenly fire at the enemy.

It appears that a hiding unit is less effective at both!

But I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep over the loss in spotting ability. In my experience, this loss in ability to spot other units, if any, is not very great, and if you have a good position of vantage (e.g. top floor of building) you're generally going to see what's coming.

On the other hand, if you're reluctant to hide units because of this spotting issue, you're going to have a lot of dead infantry on your hands. There might be exceptions to this rule, but I think they're pretty rare.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Psyched:

tecumseh

I think there's little doubt that hiding a unit makes it harder to spot.

Put it this way: don't you think it is weird that redwolf - who has played and studied this game for a while - doesn't think a hiding unit is harder to spot (than a unit with no orders and not firing)? I agree with you Psyched, but I'm not 100% convinced. I think it is worth testing thoroughly.

And yeah, i know I was not addressing your intial post ...i wouldn't be surprised if hiding units having a limited spotting ability was NOT modelled in CM. But i don't know....yet

EDIT - a quick test suggests that in open ground redwolf is right, hiding infantry units are as easily spotted as non-firing, non-hiding infantry units. I'll test other situations soon.

[ June 18, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Psyched]

tecumseh

I see what you mean, now. You were referring to that quote from redwolf. I agree that it doesn't sound quite right. I would think that a hiding unit is harder to SEE as well as HEAR, the overall effect making it harder to spot.

Maybe redwolf isn't saying what it seems like we think he's saying. :confused:

How 'bout it, redwolf?

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by xerxes:

And remember, sneaking units are happy to open fire on anything they see. Crawl if you want them to move in stealth.

The rest of your points are all good, but I have doubts about the one above. I have had sneaking units - including entire platoons in one test - from opposing sides sneak through each other in flat, open terrain at midday on a fine sunny day.

Sneaking units will not open fire unless they are fired on first.

Regards

JonS</font>

[tecumseh]

In another test i just did it confirms hiding units do have worse spotting ability. Eg. Hiding infantry see a "Stuart?" while non-hiding infantry in exactly the same situation see a confirmed "M8 Greyhound".

Both my tests make hiding seem less useful than i thought

They also show how having a "hold fire" command would make a lot of sense.

EDIT - or i could have read the manual - thanks silvio

[ June 18, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Psyched]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

EDIT - a quick test suggests that in open ground redwolf is right, hiding infantry units are as easily spotted as non-firing, non-hiding infantry units. I'll test other situations soon.

tecumseh

Did you try that same test with the hiding unit in some sort of terrain? It's possible that any further benefit provided by the "HIDE" order is exerted only when there's cover available.

It's easy for me to suggest that you do alot of tests, isn't it?

Thanks for your efforts.

And by the way, I couldn't agree more with your "HOLD FIRE" command idea.

And to Silvio: I never did like reading directions or manuals. Thanks for looking.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Psyched:

I been a testin' sir. What i found out:

Hiding behind a wall makes a big difference. You are more easily spotted if your infantry just kneel behind a wall...as I'm sure most players know.

Hiding in woods makes you harder to spot than kneeling in woods, but not as much as i thought it would.

Hiding in scattered trees makes less of a difference, but still is a bit better than just kneeling.

Hiding in the open seems to be no better than kneeling.

Units hardly ever get spotted in buildings without firing, so hiding there doesn't matter (in terms of being spotted)

Sneak means "keep moving until you're fired on, then stop and return fire". As with all orders, the waypoints gives the unit a chance to re-think the orders. Sneak with lots of waypoints is very different from sneak with one waypoint!

Six flamethrowers will force a tiger crew to abandon in 8 seconds. The tiger will never fire back.

I'm sure most people knew this stuff already

[ June 19, 2002, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[JasonC]

"Six flamethrowers will force a tiger crew to abandon in 8 seconds" - LOL.

[Priest]

If you think about, that is a damn brave Tiger crew. Eight seconds is a long time in what basically is an oven with explosives!

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Priest:

If you think about, that is a damn brave Tiger crew. Eight seconds is a long time in what basically is an oven with explosives!

True, but that 8 seconds does include the time spent deciding to go alphabetically, after all the crew members got stuck trying to go at once.

[ June 19, 2002, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Psyched]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

Hiding behind a wall makes a big difference. You are more easily spotted if your infantry just kneel behind a wall...as I'm sure most players know.

Hiding in woods makes you harder to spot than kneeling in woods, but not as much as i thought it would.

Hiding in scattered trees makes less of a difference, but still is a bit better than just kneeling.

Hiding in the open seems to be no better than kneeling.

Units hardly ever get spotted in buildings without firing, so hiding there doesn't matter (in terms of being spotted)

This is all interesting information indeed.

For me, the most helpful fact above is your finding that hiding a unit in a building has no real effect on that unit being spotted if it's not firing. This is important because if hiding DOES reduce spotting ability and prolongs reaction time to a threat, then hiding a unit in a building is not only a waste of time, but is actually detrimental to the functioning of that unit! :eek:

The only exception that I can think of is that sometimes stealthy units within a building can actually hide from enemy units who are in that same building.

So in other words, if tecumseh's tests are accurate, then hiding in buildings is almost always the wrong thing to do.

[Caesar]

I seem to recall in another thread someone mentioning that a sharpshooter can hide in the open effectively. I haven't tested this but I guess it would make sense that a single man could take advantage of minor undulations, long grass etc that larger numbers of men could not. Has anyone played around with the effects of range on these equations? I wonder if the hiding just reduces the ability to be spotted by a percentage so if the chances of being spotted are high enough there is no noticable effect.