Commissar Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 I've noticed that a lot of times when committing my troops to a human wave attack, the troops will be pinned and hit the floor but the leader will keep on going, all alone. What is the liklihood of that in reality? I don't think a leader would just keep on running when all his troops are on the ground, cowering and pinned. Is this another mistake of the AI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 While I twiddle my thumbs, waiting for the dang thing to show up on my doorstep (days, weeks, months???), I'll hazard a guess at this. Personally, it would be a case of 'show by example.' Now, I know the common picture of the politruk is someone waiting in the rear of his formation, just itching to put a cap in some unfortunate, broken 'comrade.' But, the reality was often the reverse. Most politruks considered themselves to be examples of what a 'Soviet Man' should be. Hence, they often acted with this in mind. When it came time to charge forward into Harm's Way, they were bound by duty to be in the front, to set the example. In CMBB, the platoon HQ would have a politruk and a platoon commander, commanding the unit as equals. Of course, this only applies in 1941-42. But, you most likely wouldn't be using human wave rushes from 1943, on. I wouldn't think you would, anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted September 24, 2002 Author Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: While I twiddle my thumbs, waiting for the dang thing to show up on my doorstep (days, weeks, months???), I'll hazard a guess at this. Personally, it would be a case of 'show by example.' Now, I know the common picture of the politruk is someone waiting in the rear of his formation, just itching to put a cap in some unfortunate, broken 'comrade.' But, the reality was often the reverse. Most politruks considered themselves to be examples of what a 'Soviet Man' should be. Hence, they often acted with this in mind. When it came time to charge forward into Harm's Way, they were bound by duty to be in the front, to set the example. In CMBB, the platoon HQ would have a politruk and a platoon commander, commanding the unit as equals. Of course, this only applies in 1941-42. But, you most likely wouldn't be using human wave rushes from 1943, on. I wouldn't think you would, anyway Actually, I find the human wave to be useful in getting my guys to charge over open territory. Now with CMBB's modifications, there is no way I can move my men across open ground in the same manner I did in CMBO. The human wave at least boosts their morale making it a little more likely someone gets to where they are supposed to go. When you get CMBB, try out the ISU-152. I just played a game in which a Panther stumbled into the sights of two ISU-152s of mine. The result was one dead kitty, no survivors. Also, the IS-2 is quite useful and deadly when it is used properly. When an ISU-152 or IS-2 is in the area, running into a building is no protection for the enemy. Don't you live in the Seattle area? You should have gotten it yesterday like I did. [ September 24, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Commissar said: I've noticed that a lot of times when committing my troops to a human wave attack, the troops will be pinned and hit the floor but the leader will keep on going, all alone. What is the liklihood of that in reality? I don't think a leader would just keep on running when all his troops are on the ground, cowering and pinned. Is this another mistake of the AI?You don't tend to notice so much what's happening to the guys all around you when you're charging into the lead headwind. Usually, if you're lucky enough to reach the objective, you look around and wonder where everybody else went. As for CMBB's human waves in general, your situation is only one possible result. Just as often, it's the other way around: squads keep going when leaders get pinned. It all depends on who gets hit and who freaks out. So I suggest you play the game many more times and see for yourself . I find the human wave to be useful in getting my guys to charge over open territory. Now with CMBB's modifications, there is no way I can move my men across open ground in the same manner I did in CMBO. The human wave at least boosts their morale making it a little more likely someone gets to where they are supposed to go.From my experience testing, I disagree. Human waves across any distance greater than about 100m are a sure way to utterly destroy your C&C for the duration of the game, and with it your chance of victory. Remember, we're talking conscripts here so their C&C and morale stuff sucks to begin with. Also remember that you can only give 1 waypoint in a human wave--the objective. So if you find yourself having to cross about 400m of treeless steppe, which isn't uncommon, and you want to human wave across it in 1 go, you've only got 1 waypoint 400m away. Now the troops step off. They take fire and some units of each platoon will get pinned or run for cover while the rest keep going. It doesn't take long for the units in a platoon to get WAY WAY WAY out of C&C range, what with some getting left behind and other scattering to different bits of cover in different directions, depending on when they got freaked out. The net result is a total scrambling of units between platoons and even companies. And being conscripts, it takes FOREVER for them to recover. And then it takes FOREVER for them to try to regroup when having to move from a non-C&C location. By which point the battle is over. So my advice on human waves is to use them only in short spurts. That way, hopefully those who fall behind won't be out of C&C. Also, use copious amounts of smoke and extreme overwatch fire from tanks, assault guns, and MGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Originally posted by Bullethead: Commissar said: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I've noticed that a lot of times when committing my troops to a human wave attack, the troops will be pinned and hit the floor but the leader will keep on going, all alone. What is the liklihood of that in reality? I don't think a leader would just keep on running when all his troops are on the ground, cowering and pinned. Is this another mistake of the AI?You don't tend to notice so much what's happening to the guys all around you when you're charging into the lead headwind. Usually, if you're lucky enough to reach the objective, you look around and wonder where everybody else went. As for CMBB's human waves in general, your situation is only one possible result. Just as often, it's the other way around: squads keep going when leaders get pinned. It all depends on who gets hit and who freaks out. So I suggest you play the game many more times and see for yourself . I find the human wave to be useful in getting my guys to charge over open territory. Now with CMBB's modifications, there is no way I can move my men across open ground in the same manner I did in CMBO. The human wave at least boosts their morale making it a little more likely someone gets to where they are supposed to go.From my experience testing, I disagree. Human waves across any distance greater than about 100m are a sure way to utterly destroy your C&C for the duration of the game, and with it your chance of victory. Remember, we're talking conscripts here so their C&C and morale stuff sucks to begin with. Also remember that you can only give 1 waypoint in a human wave--the objective. So if you find yourself having to cross about 400m of treeless steppe, which isn't uncommon, and you want to human wave across it in 1 go, you've only got 1 waypoint 400m away. Now the troops step off. They take fire and some units of each platoon will get pinned or run for cover while the rest keep going. It doesn't take long for the units in a platoon to get WAY WAY WAY out of C&C range, what with some getting left behind and other scattering to different bits of cover in different directions, depending on when they got freaked out. The net result is a total scrambling of units between platoons and even companies. And being conscripts, it takes FOREVER for them to recover. And then it takes FOREVER for them to try to regroup when having to move from a non-C&C location. By which point the battle is over. So my advice on human waves is to use them only in short spurts. That way, hopefully those who fall behind won't be out of C&C. Also, use copious amounts of smoke and extreme overwatch fire from tanks, assault guns, and MGs.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Commissar said: What you describe certainly applies to conscripts but doesn't at all reflect my experience so far with just regular troops.Hmmm... I wasn't in on the final beta team and have yet to receive my final copy, so I could well be behind the power curve on my info here... But last time I saw CMBB, human was was ONLY available to conscripts. Basically, the totally untrained conscripts had the human wave order and green+ troops, with at least some training, did advance or assault instead. So you couldn't advance with conscripts and you couldn't human wave with regulars. I assume this is still the case, not having heard of any changes to this. So are you sure you're using human wave with regulars? [ September 25, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Bullethead ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickovich Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I did a human wave with crack smg's which cost me some troops but totally overran the defenders.Point being dosent have to be conscripts to HW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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