Biltong Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 The issue is under discussion at BCR: How many East Front battles would an average German inf soldier have to live through to move from Conscript to Green to Regular to Vet to Crack? How about 5 from Con to Green; 8 more from Green to Regular; 12 from Reg to Vet. And 40 more to get to Crack? How long is a string – I know – just looking for gutfeel and averages. Biltong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stug30 Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 It doesn't seem to me that conscript troops could ever become green. They were after all what was left over and used in "last stand/last hope" situations. Also, from my what I have heard, I don't think it would take many firefights for one to become a regular. To hear my Grandfather (1120th Combat Engineers) tell it, you would figure things out pretty dam quick. Or die trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Stug30: It doesn't seem to me that conscript troops could ever become green. They were after all what was left over and used in "last stand/last hope" situations. Also, from my what I have heard, I don't think it would take many firefights for one to become a regular. To hear my Grandfather (1120th Combat Engineers) tell it, you would figure things out pretty dam quick. Or die trying.I agree with Stug30, In fact, you could probably divide your numbers by 2 and get closer to reality. Conscripts were the draftees and those forced into uniform, they never wanted to be there, I'd scoot 'em right to regulars after 8-10 battles, as by this time they have figured out how to survive. Green troops weren't green long, either dead, wounded or battle regulars within weeks, I guess you learn quick when being shot at. Regular to veteran would take a while longer and crack, well those guys *wanted* to be there and its a guess how long that takes! 2 more cents, KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I would speculate from green to veteran is a pretty quick step,a matter of on-the-job training so to speak. Remember the CMBO definitions of what the experience levels are; a conscript is basically someone grabbed of the street and sent straight to the front. Green troops have had basic training and maybe some training in thier specific job. Regular is someone who has served in peacetime in one capacity or another. Veterans have "seen the elephant" and survived to fight another day. Crack are well trained experienced veterans, and elite are special forces and ranger type troops or just plain gifted warriors. What I'm getting at is that I don't think experience levels are just a matter of time once you get past veteran. Crack and elite are also a matter of training. And conscripts just don't live long enough to become veterans unless they are captured which negates the whole experience thing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt CDAT Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I would say from Green to Regular would take only 1 to 2 battles. maybe 5 or 6 more to go to vet. Like the others have said you ether learn or die. I agree with splinty on the crack and elite. Not sure about the Conscripts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matias Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I have no real sense on the level transitions (though my gut tells me that Splity is on the right track - certain levels are not dependent on combat experience, but training *and* combat experience) however this disscusion made me realise one interesting twist. You're probably already working this out somehow but one thing that undoubtedly complicates tracking CM system unit experience from battle to battle as part of a campeign system is that the experience is the average of the entire squad. This makes for nasty cases such as a battle causing 75% casualties, the remaining few gain a lot of experience, but they are filled out with green troops for the next battle and may actually preform worse in average as a result. Or say one squad saw very little action in a particular battle, whereas another squad was part of a complicated assualt... Just thinking about all the possibilities makes my head hurt! I think I'll stick to playing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I think that the function is a bit too complicated to be put into straight numbers of battles. Some points: 1. Many conscripts were conscritps were conscripts not because of their desire or lack thereof to be in the battle but because of the level of training that they recieved prior to combat. If desire to be in battle were a factor, nearly everyone would have been a conscript. 2. Quality of NCOs, officers and unit mates is a huge factor in progressing through the levels. It is fairly east to move to the experience level of the top 10% of your formation. You can ask, watch and learn from the grogs around you. If no one in the batallion has ever faced fire before, you're all learning on your own. 3. Time off of the line, training and debriefing are huge factors, particulary at veteran and beyond. Practice and time to go over what went well and poorly can result in learning that real battle stituations can't (although the reverse is also true). Many units started the war fairly experienced on the merits of training alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimorocca Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 We must consider that a great part of the German's Army had two years of war behind'em. I think that no units, and absolutely no armor units, in 1941 coul be rated as green in the Germans. They may be have instead green and also conscript troops after the winter 41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 My thoughts (as expressed in the main Rule thread mirror some of the views expressed here). IMHO it would be highly unlikely that the troops first sent in by Germany in 1941 could ever be classed as green (certainly not to the extent that troops break etc. so easily at that level within CMBB). It may even be that many were more towards the upper end of any 'Regular' setting. I think this would be particularly so with SS outfits (if someone, as I do, opts to stick with the same division type throughout each campaign). As time went on I suspect the chance of units being diluted through large numbers of less well trained troops, even conscripts towards the end, was much greater. My first point I suppose is that for German troops at least I would be tempted to start any off half way up the range of points for Regular. e.g. if troops were set at regular for any experience points between 10-30, I'd start them off at 15. I am not sure how this would affect the other Axis forces mind. Maybe the troops of some other nations should be started off as green but I also think the Rules could only take account of that if you did stick to the one nation/one division type, rather than hop around the different company types as the rules allow (and were even designed to do). It might just be playable if you stuck to the different German companies. I would have thought those troops starting in 1941 (German) could be classed as Regular for about 10-20 battles, then Vet, up to about 20-35 battles and maybe crack after 35 (if the average length of a Campaign game was 50 battles or so). I am sure there will be others who are far better read on the topic than I who can give some better guidance mind. From the Soviet perspective I would also think that a high degree of constraint should be placed on any settings for Soviet forces that put them beyond Regular for some time. Given that this set of rules is devised for the first 6 motnhs of Barbarossa I wonder whether they would ever be likely to get above Regular (even Green) at best? Guards Mech/Guards may be expected to I suppose but from my limited knowledge of the Eastern Front I think the Soviets were taking quite a thrashing for a couple of years before they could start throwing the CMBB equivalent of Vet/Crack into the battles. Again, others will have more knowledge than I. [ December 08, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Apache ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted December 8, 2002 Author Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Stug30: [QB]It doesn't seem to me that conscript troops could ever become green. They were after all what was left over and used in "last stand/last hope" situations.... [QB]Won't that depend on when they were deployed.. If they started out in 42 as someone above suggests, they would surely move up the exp. ranks in the years that follow? Any ideas when they were first called on? I also thought they were only called up end 44 onwards, but in 42 already? Biltong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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