Ronson Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Saving Private Ryan was on HBO last nite, so of course I watched it for the 5th time. I saw it the first time in the theatre when it first came out. The whole damn theatre shook when that Tiger was coming down the street! Did I see somewhere on this forum that the Tiger tanks in the movie were actually T-34's? They sure looked like the real thing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Let's see... there was a thread that said the "Tigers" in Kelly's Heroes were T-34s, but I THINK the general consensus on SPR was they were real. (Good lord, you'd think Spielberg would or could have the necessary pull and budget! ) ------------------ Honor, Duty, Courage. Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior... ------------------------ "If you find yourself alone, riding through green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium, and YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comstr Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Look at the tracks, then come back to CM and look at the wheels on a real tiger. The wheels look idetical to me as the same wheels as KH's, ie- T34 bases with a Tiger shell on top. Unless someone wants to correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 After its restoration, the Tiger at Bovington will be the only one in the world in running order. So I think it's fair to say that the Tigers in SPR probably weren't real ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 I think the Tiger in SPR looked pretty good, but, it is NOT real. As mentioned, look at the wheels/tracks. There is no drive sprocket in the front. A dead giveaway. On the other hand, I just got Kelly's Heroes on DVD and , IMHO, the Tiger in SPR is much more realistic. ------------------ Land Soft, Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bredberg Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Hi, After SPR was released there were numouros discussions on several www-site regarding the 'Tiger'. I desprately tried to find a link - but I seemed to lost it. However this is fact: The Tiger in the movie is a re-built T-34 - which is fairly easy to see on the tracks. Which type T-34 I don't know. The model was built by people from Bovington (Museum in England) and back then they had a link discussing the re-built (which I didn't find now). The top-part of model (that is apart from the tracks) is indeed very accurate - look e.g. on the back of tank which include the cooling -fans, exhaust pipes and such - quite impressive, but hey these guys are actually restoring a Tiger now. I can't rember how many Tigers (I) there exist throughout the world, but there is one at Bovington, one in Moscow, one in the USA and maybe some more - however none in running order until maybe soon in England. Check it out at Bovington - it is an excellent tank-museum! (Noops I'm not a brit/pommy/.. I like 'em anyhow!) Cheers Jonas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk And the consensus (using it in the Japanese sense of the word consensus) is that the 'Tiger' in SPR was a T-34, albeit very accurately modeled. Why would Spielberg care about the historical accuracy of the Tiger wheels, when having a Tiger in the movie in the first place is historically inaccurate? ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronson Posted January 13, 2001 Author Share Posted January 13, 2001 >Why would Spielberg care about the historical accuracy of the Tiger wheels, when having a Tiger in the movie in the first place is historically inaccurate? For my next dumb question....Why is the use of a Tiger in SPR historically inaccurate? p.s. Thanks everyone for your replies [This message has been edited by Ronson (edited 01-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ronson: For my next dumb question....Why is the use of a Tiger in SPR historically inaccurate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There were no Tigers at the fight that Spielberg is recreating in the movie to my knowledge. AFAIK there were no Tigers in the American sector until quite late in the Normandy battle. Some of the real grogs can probably answer that one better than I can. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ronson: Did I see somewhere on this forum that the Tiger tanks in the movie were actually T-34's? They sure looked like the real thing to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree, they were very well done, but there's a good blurb with pictures at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ipmsuk/armoursig.htm that describes the conversion of T-34/85's for the movie. (I think it was posted on one of the BTS forums earlier.) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by I/O Error: (Good lord, you'd think Spielberg would or could have the necessary pull and budget! ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Schiffer "Profile" agrees with the Bovington web page that there are only 6 surviving Tiger I's (the Bovington one, the USA one that was on loan to Germany, two in France [saumur museum & at Vimoutiers], two in Russia [Kubinka musuem & "near Moscow?" [listed as "Fate unknown"]). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: There were no Tigers at the fight that Spielberg is recreating in the movie to my knowledge. AFAIK there were no Tigers in the American sector until quite late in the Normandy battle. Some of the real grogs can probably answer that one better than I can. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dunno that I qualify as a "real grog", but I agree with Andreas that on the date CPT Miller was killed (13 June 1944) the only Tiger unit in combat in the area was sSSPzAbt 101 near Villers-Bocage (sSSPzAbt 102 & sPzAbt 503 arrive in the area in early July). But, their Tigers were fighting Cromwells & Shermans (including Fireflies) of the British 4th County of London Yeomanry "Sharpshooters" tank battalion at Villers-Bocage on the 13th. Tiger "131", shown in the movie, was SS-Untersturmführer Hahn's which is chronicled as indeed being with the 1st company (where it belonged, due to the first "1") at Villers-Bocage (he was awarded his Iron Cross, First Class, seven days later). SS-Unterscharführer Kleber's "232" (part of Wittmann's 2nd company, as shown by the first "2") is the other Tiger shown in the movie but is not listed as being part of the 2nd company action at Villers-Bocage, possibly due to not being operational on the 13th? (Kleber himself was reported as "fatally hit in the turret of his Tiger" on 10 June by fighter-bombers.) After this battle SS-Obergruppenführer Sepp Dietrich had his staff write up the application for Wittmann's award of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords. To the credit of the Tiger converters they appear to have done their homework and a good job with the markings. "232" is correctly shown with the 2nd company's scheme of red numerals outlined in white, and the sSSPzAbt 101 unit insignia of two crossed skeleton keys is correctly placed for the 2nd company on the right hull front (1st & 3rd had theirs on the left hull front). The numerals of the 1st company were green-olive outlined in white, which is what "131" appeared to be in the movie ... but on the web site the "131" markings on the rear of the turret appear to be an incorrect red? The "S" in the rhombus on the right hull rear was unique to the 1st company, another nice touch by the converters. --Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Just thought I'd add my two-penneth worth to simply confirm (and probably unnecessarily by now) that of course the Tigers on SPR were fake. I'm not sure about the connection with the Bovvie Museum as far as the people who put them together are concerned, as a company called Action Vehicles built, put back together and kept running all the vehicles in the film. As is quite obvious, the 'Tigers' were built around T34 chassis' (just as they were in Kelly's Heroes - and quite possibly using the same plans) and look pretty impressive in the flesh (or steel) - until somebody stands next to it at which point the obvious size difference quickly destroys the illusion. Talking of destruction, the main reason that no attempt was made to make use of privately owned armour collections for the German tanks is that film companies like to see things go bang - especially if its German. It is somewhat difficult to convince the owner of a rare armoured vehicle that the hire fee is well worth the sight of their precious vehicle being stuffed with explosives and blown to kindom come (a la Tiger in SPR) to the appreciative howls and applause of the gathered film crew! Also, and somewhat conversely, for those of you who see green machines as an endangered species, you don't want to know how many 'less rare' US vehicles got trashed in the name of art! One specific example is how a fairly serviceable GMC was blown into tiny pieces for no other reason than to be used as set dressing - they didn't even film the destruction! One final piece of information to bore you with: the Tigers from SPR were, or should I say, have, been recycled in Band of Brothers and, for you lovers of German vehicles out there, if you drooled uncontrollably at the Tigers, you're just going to go crazy for the Jagdpanther the vehicle boys put together for BoB. It has to be said that the vehicle hanger on BoB was even more impressive than it was for SPR: Tigers, Jagdpanther, Marders, Stugs (you can judge for yourself when BoB hits the screen as to what they are made from!), and more and varied soft skins than you could throw a stick grenade at! Wait and wonder guys but one final thing - no matter how good these things are going to look in Bob, they're still gonna lose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 One final unnecessary point - the German Tiger had interleaved roadwheels (look at your hi-res bitmaps again boys) and the T-34 in SPR obviously did not. How did the T-34/Tiger track link make it to the Alamo I wonder? It is on the sandbags near the detonator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 The piece of track link on the sandbags is just set dressing for the scene after the Tiger was destroyed - the bits went up and then the bits came down again, and this bit 'landed' right next to Mister Damon to catch the attention of the eagle eyed. These sandbags are those positioned down at the bridge as opposed to on the 'Alamo'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 A previous post mentioned the Tiger at Bovington. I believe Bovington has (had?) possession of the T34/plywood Tigers from SPR. Also, I've (illegally) climbed on the real Tiger in Bovington and in Aberdeen. They appear almost twice as big in real life as that movie tanks. Houses on wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Ronson: They sure looked like the real thing to me. next time you watch it check out the roadwheels. ------------------ No bastard has ever won a war by dying for his country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. shadow@jagdtiger.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Mikey D: I believe Bovington has (had?) possession of the T34/plywood Tigers from SPR. ... They appear almost twice as big in real life as that movie tanks.  Don't know that plywood was used, but they are, according to this link, at Bovington. The replicas were scaled to fit the base T-35/85's, whose dimensions are also compared to the original Tiger's on that web page. [This message has been edited by AbnAirCav (edited 01-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: There were no Tigers at the fight that Spielberg is recreating in the movie to my knowledge. Tigers are not the only unrealistic aspects of the SPR movie; another one is the officer complaining about Von Luck's 88s plastering his infantry: Von Luck was nowhere near the American sector (he was fighting the British), and the Germans did not use the 88 as an anti-infantry weapon, they had better weapons for that purpose. Another one is that the 101'st Airborne did not take 2 weeks to get together as the movie shows, they were reunited in a matter of days. In addition, as has been pointed out many times before, the whole story of the search for the "Ryan" guy is highly distorted for the purposes of making the movie more interesting. It is a good movie loosely based on History, but it is not History. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 The last time I was at Bovington, they had the mock-up Tiger on display. Right next to a T-34. "Tiger" actually looked a little smaller. The -real- Tiger was across the hall, so no side-by-side comparison, but it frankly dwarfs the mock-Tiger. Incidentally, when I first saw the Tiger on a prior visit, the turret had been dismounted for restoration (It was next to the hull). Upon rounding a corner and seeing the huge, turretless, box-shaped hull, my first thought was "Jaysus.. Someone's taken the Bren-Carrier concept to extremes...... Oh. Ooops" As for the T-34 Sprocket Wheel, I defy you to come up with a picture of an evident sprocket wheel as we are used to. The T-34 didn't have one, the drivewheels had rods internally. NTM ------------------ The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by Henri: and the Germans did not use the 88 as an anti-infantry weapon, they had better weapons for that purpose. Henri Henri, if you talk to Canadian, British or American veterans, they all talk about 88s being used as anti-infantry weapoons. Read the book Private by Les Atwell, or scores of other histories. That doesn't mean they were used that way, though - and I suspect you are correct that the 88 was very rarely used as such. However, it was just like every tank crewman who thought he was shot at by a Tiger every time out - the term "88" was used widely and inaccurately, usually to refer to anything from 50mm to a 150 mm gun of some type. You often hear about "88s" firing indirectly, or firing HE. It was simply a term Allied soldiers hurled around. For Captain Miller to refer to 88s seems historical - every GI also called an MP 40 a Schmeisser. Grognards know this is incorrect, but the men who faced death from them didn't know the difference - or much care what it was called. Just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I suspect the common feeling was that if it was German, big, made noise, and killed American, than by God it was an 88. Anyway: Although we can all agree that SPR (along with most modern war movies) is woefully inaccurate. But surely we can all agree that it's a superb movie, yes? I mean, I loved U-571, even though I knew the only thing they got right was the basic timeline. Entertainment is what movies are meant for. I might wish for a lot more historical accuracy in my films, but in reality that's what documentaries are for. Movies = Fantasy, escape from reality, sheer entertainment Documentaries = Cold hard facts presented in as unbiased a way as possible. (with various degrees of success) Anyway, that's just my $0.02 I just wish folks would enjoy the movie and not say it was bad BECAUSE it was inaccurate at times. *shrug* ------------------ Honor, Duty, Courage. Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior... ------------------------ "If you find yourself alone, riding through green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium, and YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zukmuk Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 What about the first half-hour where they storm the beaches. Is this also historically inaccurate? I have seen a few shows on the making of SPR which always seem to have veterans commending the film as the closest representation to the real thing they have seen. Is it merely hype? The problem my dad had with SPR(a brit who grew up during the war) was the lack of representation by any other soldiers than American (no Candadian, British, etc.). Regardless, I really enjoyed the film and it is now a part of my home movie collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barticus Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 With regards to the T-34 mock-ups used in both Kelly's Heroes and SPR ( I have heard unconfirmed rumours they were the same vehicles), it wasn't the bogey wheels which tipped me, but the turret placement. The Tiger's turret was mid-hull, while the T-34's is rather far forward. Just my 2 cents worth. Bart ------------------ "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts