"Infantry Guns" or "Killing Infntry with Guns"

[olandt]

Hi,

So what are peoples views on the infantry guns afforded to the germans? (I'm only looking at the germans here since I'm primarily concerned with defending as the germans).

The basic choice seems to come down to pts vs Blast. Do you take 1 150mm gun, or 3 75mm guns? The benefit of the 150mm gun is it's ability to scare the bedjeezus out of enemy infantry and route most squads with the first hit. That said, after the infantry finishes hiding, the gun will be quickly taken out with enemy artillery, giving it at most 4 turns of action.

The smaller guns give the advantage of cheapnes, meaning you can by more to force the enemy to use more artillery to take them out. Each gun however takes MUCH longer to get the same effect the 150 does.

The 105 recoiless seems to be a decent compromise, but I'm not convinced. My other thought was to go with hummel. Yes it has limited ammo, but when does your 150mm ever survive long enough to go through more than 15 shots? The hummel's mobility should help it survive against enemy artillery.

Is there ANY use for the 20mm Flak or 37mm Flak beyond (slightly) annoying fighter/bombers?

Are field guns worth the pts at all, or should you just go with inf and AFV?

Pete

[Stacheldraht]

Field guns are useful, particularly on the defense. The key is to use more than one if possible, protect them from infantry rushes with MG's that are near enough to lay down supressive fire but not close enough to get an arty blast meant for the IG, and to wait until the enemy is close enough to do real damage. Otherwise, as you say, they'll get hit with arty or mortar fire.

Either way, you can't count on them lasting overly long, but when employed at crucial moments to turn the tide of a small spearhead, they're effective. Just keep them hidden until then. Nonetheless, investment in more infantry (particularly SMG squads) for close-range combat and/or schrecks for AT work can be a better bargain.

The Flak guns are extremely useful. Very rarely do enemy fighter-bombers appear, so their main uses are: supression and injuring of infantry, destroying light vehicles, damaging (gun damage, immobilization) heavier vehicles, and/or knocking out heavier vehicles from the flanks or rear. German mobile AA guns, particularly the armored Ostwind and Wirbelwind, are even more useful, as they can be relocated quickly and can be brought to bear on different buildings that enemies are located in. It only takes a turn or so for a 37mm Flak gun to destroy a building, and with so much ammo, you can do that with impunity.

Beware the open-topped SP guns, like the Hummel. Used carefully, they're fine weapons, but a .50 caliber MG alone can KO one.

[Gen-x87H]

Hummel is a deadly weapon vs Infantry but I find it lacks the ammo for me.

Personally I usually would go with the 105 howitzers. But usually in my games I wait for the opponent to grab the flags then blast them into obvlivion Pretty good blast and ROF. Not too expensive. Maybe have 2 105s and a 88flak or Pak\43 and a smaller 50mm AT gun for Armor duty.

If you really only need them for supression the 75s are a damn good buy.

I am learning more and more that guns are a very deterring factor. I could buy 3 75s, place them around the field and watch in glee as the enemy notices them but cant ID them. Thier armor will never move because they can not tell if it is a deadly Pak gun They waste arty on a 75 or alow thier infantry to come close it to be amushed.

I am also having more luck with AT guns. usually killing more armor than my armor

Gen

[Shipmonkey25]

Don't discount the german 37mm AA. It's able to destroy any ally vehicles short of the heavy tanks, and it's more than able to immobilize most of those in one or two rounds. It's rate of fire allows it to rip holes through infantry and supress any other heavy weapons.

Put it on a halftrack chassis or a Panzer IV chassis and its becomes one of the most fear QB guns. In my opion a Ostwind is a must for the protection of heavy german tanks in combat, not exactly historical but it works. The 37mm is capable of killing all the allied TDs in short order. In the group of CM players I LAN game with the Ostwind is known as the Hellcat Killer.

[Mr. Johnson--]

The Hummel is a good choice, but the wespe on cost like 57. Maybe grab 2 75mm and 1 150mm. Then you got staying power, good coverage, and lots of fear factor. But the 75mm FH is not a tank killer, the HC rounds can kill a tank at close range but you probably gonna need some good AT equpiment.

[Warmaker]

For the field guns, the 75mm is a good, cheap buy. Can't really go wrong with a few of these. Again, quite cheap, and nice to have these directly break up those green/conscript infantry attacks. I agree with the above posts about their survivability since everything and their grandmother will target them (maybe buy time for your precious ATGs while they're being targetted?). Proper timing to use these weapons will maximize their cost. I really love the 150mm gun, a sure way to terrorize infantry. Nearby HTs and other light AFVs (M10/M18/etc.) need to worry about the high blast of the 150mm gun. Also, infantry really have to worry about them, especially conscripts/green platoons. They'll be crying for momma and running on top of water like the second coming to get back to Washington D.C./London.

As for the recoilless rifles, I have a reserved opinion about them. I tend to have problems even knocking out Shermans frontally with these weapons. The 105mm RR is effective in filling both AP and AT roles. However, is it me or does the 105mm RR have a REEEALLY bad reload time? To me it feels worse than the 150mm Inf.Gun. Also, the RR have quite low velocities. The 105mm only has one of 335m/sec. Because of this, it is only really useful for short range AT shots but the traversing of the 105mm is slow. If you really want a powerful, multipurpose gun, the various 88mm guns are beautiful for this.

For SP guns/artillery, if I ever get a say in my selection, the StuH'42 is the ONLY way to go. Cheap, fairly armored, later versions have skirts for dealing with flank 'zook shots, remote flexible MGs, close defense mortars (Nahverteidigungswaffe) for dealing with too close for comfort infantry, and possessing the all around 105mm gun. They are closed top and .50 cals can't kill them compared to the frail Wespe and Hummel. For the "in your face fighting" of CMBO, the StuH is designed for this type of fighting while the Wespes and Hummels normally sit back and provide indirect artillery fire from long ranges. The 105mm gun is very nice against soft targets and can usually wreak havoc for infantry hiding in buildings. I'll say it again, the StuH is the final word for a dedicated German SPG/A in killing infantry. Cheap and effective and carries a good ammo loadout. At close ranges, it can of course deal with armor with hollow charge rounds.

Now, for the 20mm and 37mm FlaK guns. Both are good for suppression, but the 37mm gun will surely yield you casualties. Why? IIRC the 20mm only has a blast value of 6. But with the high ROF it will cause infantry to duck and seek cover and thinking of their mortality. The 37mm gun on the other hand still retains a high ROF, but it has a blast value of 26, a whole world of difference. With the ROF and blast, you will surely yield casualties. In addition, both the 20mm and 37mm guns are extremely proficient in dealing with the annoying Allied HT and other light AFVs. You can deal with the commonplace U.S. M10 with some savvy management but anyone stupid enough to bring a M18 should have his grunts dig graves at the beginning of the battle for those crewmen. I mean, come on... for a TD to be killed by a 20mm FlaK gun FRONTALLY is embarassing. Anyways, these guns can give problems to light AFV with their ROF. The 37mm even has good penetration to deal with even the Stuarts and M10 to a degree.

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Redwolf]

Both infantry guns are easier to spot than other comparable guns. That why the 75mm is so cheap and the 150mm is affordable.

Tactics-wise comparing the 75mm howitzer and the 75mm infantry gun, I think that the infantry gun is the better choice for the inner defenses that open fire late at storming infantry directly in front. But that the howitzer is better for gun positions that guard areas by long-range fire (usually earlier in the game).

Not that this matters when you can't see the map in advance

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Stacheldraht]

One way to aid the survivability of howitzers/IG's is to keyhole sight (or site, in this case) them, where their field of view (and consequently the places they can be viewed from) is limited, like down a town road with rows of buildings on either side, down a narrow valley, etc. That way, you can defend a vital lane into your defensive position with ease while devoting more forces elsewhere, plus you won't have thirty enemy units all spot the gun at once and eliminate it in a heartbeat. From what I gather, this sort of positioning isn't necessarily historically accurate for German forces, at least according to doctrine, but they lost, so don't pay them much mind

See the Handbook on German Forces, Ch. IV for some details on defensive positioning: http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm#AWorldWarII19391945

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Warmaker]

Well, just dug around my pocket to give another $.02

I don't like using ATGs for killing infantry unless the situation really warrants it. It's not that the blast isn't bad for the PaK40, it's just that they don't carry much HE rounds in a normal game. The 88mm PaK43's carry a bit more and naturally carry that nice blast of the '88. The 50mm PaK38 is just too small and will probably annoy nearby enemy infantry. Keep in mind that the alot of people disrespect the PaK38 due to the size and small blast. The 50mm PaK38 is better in a few ways than the 37mm FlaK on the ground role since it will surely kill anything lighter than a Sherman at the typical CMBO ranges. If you're lucky they'll get a few "t" rounds (egads! Tungsten for the Germans in CMBO!) to perforate Shermans (whoopee, haven't done that before). The 37mm FlaK and the PaK38 are quite important in dealing with the Western Allies due to the proliferation of Stuarts, HTs, Greyhounds, and other lights and those flanking maneuvers. These two are cheap, effective means of dealing with them. The 37mm FlaK has the added bonus of being able to rip infantry apart with the blast value of 26 but as I said before may have some trouble in penetrating the front of Shermans and maybe a Stuart. The PaK38 will rip through any Allied light. In addition, a regular PaK38 only costs 36 points in Nov'44! It's no '88, but you can't go wrong.

Also, the PSW 234/3 carries a short 75mm. If you've selected a mechanized force, this vehicle is a nice pick. Carries more HE and C rounds than the similarly gunned SPWs, and is mounted on the fast Puma's chassis. Very nice, and quite suited for getting around fast to support your infantry. Also, due to the alternate facing rear driver, it backs out of danger quite fast like a good coward!

[Stacheldraht]

I don't believe this was mentioned, but those 150mm IG's, despite firing only about two rounds per minute, come well stocked with around 40 rounds of HE ammo and a few C rounds for armor threads (though a 150mm HE round will blow light vehicles into the stratosphere). If you can somehow keep the gun active awhile, that's quite a bit of anti-personnel damage you can dole out.