Elsdorf SUCKS!!!!!!!

[Fernando]

I've read some posts complaining about the German reinforcement placement in Elsdorf. I couldn't agree more. I'm playing it PBEM as the German commander. It was a VERY interesting scenario till my Tiger reinforcement appeared. At the worst place! in the open! offering its side to and in full view of lots of American tanks. I losed all four in 45 seconds. No enemy loses. My Tigers only could hit one tank (it ricocheted). What did the scenario designer intend placing those Tigers there? Against a cautious, competent American player there is no hope to save ANY Tiger if you're not wildly lucky. Who playtested this scenario? I’m VERY surprised. IMHO it’s UNBALANCED.

BTW The damn gyrostabilizers turn those Pershing and almost any American tank with a veteran crew in deadly machines (if they can penetrated the enemy armor, that is). IMHO they are too accurate.

Yes, I know there’s an unofficial second version of this scenario somewhere but IMHO BTS must correct it with an official second version.

Sorry for my poor English

[Guest rune]

Hmmm I tested that one...funny...I beat the americans against a human and against the computer. Maybe you need to re-think your tactics?

Rune

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

Hmmm I tested that one...funny...I beat the americans against a human and against the computer. Maybe you need to re-think your tactics?

Rune<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What tactics? Maybe you could enlighten me

Take the first Tiger. It has a Sherman and M8 at 1 (using a clock) about 150 m away, a Sherman, two Pershing a Chafee and a SP Gun at 2 about 400 m away and a Sherman and a SP gun at 4 (about 180-150 m away). Please remember Tiger turrets rotate slowwer than American ones.

I ordered them to fire to one different tank each and ordered the first three Tigers to reverse. My opponent was frightened to see four Tigers and ordered all its tanks to reverse as well

First Tiger was destroyed after 7 seconds and being hit 3-4 times. It was still trying to rotate its turret. It had a Pershing at its 2 and a Sherman at its 4. Second and third Tiger lasted longer (25 and 26 seconds). Four Tiger was lucky. It survived but received a gun hit making it useless. It'll be destroyed next turn because I don't have any place where I can hide them.

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

Hmmm I tested that one...funny...

Rune<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It WAS FUNNY till the Tigers appeared....and disappeared same turn. My opponent isn't an experienced one. His infantry has suffered lots of casualties trying to enter in the village and he prefered to act cautiously with his tanks (few of them were engaged). I had the upper hand till the Tigers were vaporized in 60 seconds (three in 26 seconds).

[Buckeye]

Which version of Elsdorf were you playing? Wild Bill posted a revised version at CHMQ after I complained about the placement of the reinforcements. In the revised version, they don't arrive on the side any longer.

And Fernando, you could be a little gentler in the title for your post. Wild Bill has done some of the best scenarios for CM. Elsdorf is actually a lot of fun, aside from the problem with the reinforcements, and Wild Bill quickly fixed that after he checked it out himself.

------------------

"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[Guest Lord General MB]

Sir,

Buckeye....

"Here's a quater kid, buy yourself a better computer."

Sound Famailer?

------------------

Cheers,

Lord General Mr. Bill,

1st Army

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

Which version of Elsdorf were you playing? Wild Bill posted a revised version at CHMQ after I complained about the placement of the reinforcements. In the revised version, they don't arrive on the side any longer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately we played the first version. I've downloaded the revised version and you're right, Tigers don't arrive on the side, right into an ambush. Why didn't BTS included it in the 1.04 or 1.05 patch? It's only 18,6 K.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

And Fernando, you could be a little gentler in the title for your post. Wild Bill has done some of the best scenarios for CM. Elsdorf is actually a lot of fun, aside from the problem with the reinforcements, and Wild Bill quickly fixed that after he checked it out himself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It WAS funny till turn 14!!!! It was a very interesting scenario until those damn Tigers arrived at the wrong place and RUINED two weeks playing with my PBEM opponent. I was ANGRY. I wanted to be defeated by an human opponent and not by a faulty scenario design. Who playtested it? I'm suspicious about other scenarios now. Please, playtest all scenarios CAREFULLY before submiting them to BTS.

BTW I LOVE CM. It's the best computer game I've ever played. I'm an avid boardgamer (ASL, Europa, etc, I own hundreds of boardgames) and CM is the first computer game I ever played which make me think about boardgames as outdated things of the past.

[CrapGame]

Fernando, do you have the newest version of this one where the reinforcements don't appear in the midst of the American lines? I think the designer of this one has posted it, and it makes the game much more winnable from the German side when your reinforcements live longer than 32 seconds (which is how long mine lived the first time I played this one in the one on the disk).

------------------

CrapGame

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrapGame:

Fernando, do you have the newest version of this one where the reinforcements don't appear in the midst of the American lines? I think the designer of this one has posted it, and it makes the game much more winnable from the German side when your reinforcements live longer than 32 seconds (which is how long mine lived the first time I played this one in the one on the disk).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I've got it today and checked where the reinforcement appears. Unfortunately we began playing the original version under 1.03. We started it before the 1.04 and 1.05 patches appeared and we didn't know that a second version was available.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes, I know there’s an unofficial second version of this scenario somewhere but IMHO BTS must correct it with an official second version<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, with a topic like that I'm sure that Wild Bill will drop everything and rush over to fix it.

May I suggest an apology post.

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Charlie don't surf!

[spcwrnglr]

My first time playing Elsdorf that reinforcement placement was deadly for me (I was the Americans). I had an entire rifle platoon, complete with machine gun and bazooka support, along with a mortar half track, an armored car, and a light tank. I was preparing a flank-assault on the town that would coordinate with my frontal assault.

Well, they were hunkered down and setting up the fire base when the four tigers showed up behind them. It took 2 turns to totally wipe out my entire platoon and support units.

I did take out all 4 tigers very quickly, however, it took me two turns to get 3 Pershings into position, I had been using them earlier to try and overwhelm the right flank.

[Guest rune]

[RANT MODE ON]

I among others tested this. The scneario worked fine with the 1.01 and 1.02 release, but a change in the reinforcements marker changed the scenario enough that Wild Bill changed the scenario. Why didn't we test it? Because we are NOT mind readers, nor do we know what is going to happen everytime a piece of code is changed. It is impossible for every tweak to be tested in every scenario...unless you want a patch about every 6 months. So, before you go and say "This sucks!!!!!!" who tested this? KNOW what you are talking about. Talk to the scenario author, a change may have occured that he did not even know about. Wild Bill is one of the best scenario authors out there, he isn't going to try to wreck a pbem game on purpose. I test the scenarios and have co-authored some. Until you have done the same, maybe you can cut the people who are doing it a little slack, and try to be a little understanding before going off unjustly. As for beta testing carefully, ask anyone who I tested a scenario for and ask them how much I test a scenario. I test and re-test to get the playability right. IF you think it is so easy, then TRY to do it yourself.

[RANT MODE OFF]

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fernando:

It WAS funny till turn 14!!!! It was a very interesting scenario until those damn Tigers arrived at the wrong place and RUINED two weeks playing with my PBEM opponent. I was ANGRY. I wanted to be defeated by an human opponent and not by a faulty scenario design. Who playtested it? I'm suspicious about other scenarios now. Please, playtest all scenarios CAREFULLY before submiting them to BTS.

BTW I LOVE CM. It's the best computer game I've ever played. I'm an avid boardgamer (ASL, Europa, etc, I own hundreds of boardgames) and CM is the first computer game I ever played which make me think about boardgames as outdated things of the past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Wild Bill Wilder]

The revision is up on the Combat Mission HQ page. From all the reports I've received, it plays much better.

I'm sorry you got an older version that gave you problems, Fernando.

To be into a battle and then have your hopes crushed can be very frustrating. And since I am about as volatile as you, I understand. I'm glad you like the revision. I do too.

A kinder gentler approach would have been nice, but at least this catches everyone's eye and lets them know a revision is out there. I can live with that.

Rune is in my mind one of the best playtesters that has ever worked with me. In fact, the whole Raider CM team is topnotch. They always point out these kinds of things and without them, I could not possibly do what I do.

So I'll share the glory, but just give me the heat.

So everyone...be sure you have the revised Elsdorf, or you'll watch some beautiful Tigers turn into toast before they fire

Of course, if you are the American player, you don't want to change a thing

You can get it at the CMHQ Depot.

http://combathq.thegamers.net

Finally, after seven years and over 1,000 total scenarios for 9 different games, I'm used to a little heat.

I will admit, however, that the title of this post did catch my eye

And thanks, guys, those of you who posted replies and explained. That means a lot to me. I appreciate your support.

------------------

Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 09-01-2000).]

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

[RANT MODE ON]

I among others tested this. The scneario worked fine with the 1.01 and 1.02 release, but a change in the reinforcements marker changed the scenario enough that Wild Bill changed the scenario. Why didn't we test it? Because we are NOT mind readers, nor do we know what is going to happen everytime a piece of code is changed. It is impossible for every tweak to be tested in every scenario...unless you want a patch about every 6 months. So, before you go and say "This sucks!!!!!!" who tested this? KNOW what you are talking about. Talk to the scenario author, a change may have occured that he did not even know about. Wild Bill is one of the best scenario authors out there, he isn't going to try to wreck a pbem game on purpose. I test the scenarios and have co-authored some. Until you have done the same, maybe you can cut the people who are doing it a little slack, and try to be a little understanding before going off unjustly. As for beta testing carefully, ask anyone who I tested a scenario for and ask them how much I test a scenario. I test and re-test to get the playability right. IF you think it is so easy, then TRY to do it yourself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don'0t agree. You had to playtest it. IMHO if the scenario designer had to change the scenario then someone had to playtest it BEFORE its release. BTW I got it with the version 1.02 CD. Did version 1.03 to 1.05 change the placement of reinforcements on the scenarios?

Fortunately BTS and people working for them are responsive. I'm very pleased by the patches and Elsdorf second version. Thanks Wild Bill Wilder

BTW I choosed this emphatic title because I wanted to attract people to this subject. I felt frustrated after playing for 14 days. Things went well then suddenly the whole thing collapsed like a house of cards. It wasn't my fault. I was angry and unfortunately I'm a bit volatile. I just wanted to warm other players about that scenario (first version, that is).

I strongly suggest to include the second version of this scenario on a future patch. It's difficult to notice it in the CombatMissionHQ pages. There are dozens of scenarios. I didn't notice it at first glance.

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Any time any of you have a problem with one of mine, don't hesitate to drop me a line. Don't let it get to that point.

I'll do my best to help or at least console you if the situation can't be remedied.

Thanks for the kind words Fernando. Again, I understand your frustration. Your idea for sending out all revised scenarios as a part of the patch is a very good one.

------------------

Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[Guest rune]

Yes, a bug was introduced in 1.02 or was it 1.03 with reinforcements. the amount of space where the reinforcements could come in CHANGED from what we tested under. I would not of mentioned it if it wasn't the case.

It has been fixed under 1.05, but the distance was still greater. hence Wild Bill changed the scenario. Anything else you want to tell me about how we tested? OR maybe you will take the word of two of the beta testers instead of making guesses?

Remember, in order to have scenarios for the game release...the scenarios were actually designed with a BETA version of the software. If he hadn't, the game would have been released with no scenarios. Quite a few of the testers had scenarios done LONG before there was a 1.01 version of the software.

Volatile or not...the work Wild Bill and others done is for free. Keep that in mind before posting such rudeness. Twice you have stated things that you were wrong about.

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fernando:

I don'0t agree. You had to playtest it. IMHO if the scenario designer had to change the scenario then someone had to playtest it BEFORE its release. BTW I got it with the version 1.02 CD. Did version 1.03 to 1.05 change the placement of reinforcements on the scenarios?

Fortunately BTS and people working for them are responsive. I'm very pleased by the patches and Elsdorf second version. Thanks Wild Bill Wilder

BTW I choosed this emphatic title because I wanted to attract people to this subject. I felt frustrated after playing for 14 days. Things went well then suddenly the whole thing collapsed like a house of cards. It wasn't my fault. I was angry and unfortunately I'm a bit volatile. I just wanted to warm other players about that scenario (first version, that is).

I strongly suggest to include the second version of this scenario on a future patch. It's difficult to notice it in the CombatMissionHQ pages. There are dozens of scenarios. I didn't notice it at first glance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Trollslayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ELSDORF SUCKS! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by Trollslayer (edited 09-01-2000).]

[Guest Lord General MB]

Soldier,

Trollslayer, due play 40K?

------------------

Cheers,

Lord General Mr. Bill,

1st Army

[curih]

I first played this map as the Americans and the reinforcements were ruinous. I had advanced fairly quickly and the tiger came in on the flank and rear of about 6 tanks. I managed to kill one and immobolize another. I ended up having to avoid that area for most of the game. Playing as the Germans yielded similar results. I lost 2 tigers but the other two blasted through the American flank and broke his attack.

[GilaMonster]

I played the original version of Elsdorf and lost 2 Challengers (?), 2 Shermans, and 2 Priests on the turn of arrival of the German reinforcements. I couldn't believe it. They appeared right behind me. It was over right then and there.

------------------

Gilamonster

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

Volatile or not...the work Wild Bill and others done is for free. Keep that in mind before posting such rudeness. Twice you have stated things that you were wrong about.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was I wrong twice? What things? AFAIK the designer agree the first scenario version had to be changed.

About my rudennes: I wrote my first message right after viewing the destruction of my Tigers. I've played CM enough to feel something was wrong with those reinforcements but seeing the destruction of three of them in 26 seconds enraged me. It wasn't my fault!!!!

BTW I know Wild Bill an others (i.e. you) work for CM for free and I REALLY appreciate it but I paid a lot of overvalued dollars ($55.00, I'm a poor European with depreciated euros) for this game and it's my right to complain about a scenario.

To GilaMonsters and curih:

I guess you played against the computer but to play humans is another matter. Human players playing PBEM act cautiously most of the time and don't rush its tanks right into the village. Most of the time they leave their Pershings in the reaguard providing long range covering fire for their other vehicles and infantry. If that's the case then the Tigers are doomed. With at least two or three Pershing on their flank, they're quickly destroyed before they can rotate its turrets. The German player can do little to prevent it but to pray.

[Buckeye]

Fernando, to paraphrase our President, I feel your pain. But, to say "It wasn't my fault!" is just plain wrong. Getting mad is fine, but flaming someone (in your case, BTS & Wild Bill) rather than expressing your feelings in a civil tone is a choice...yes, you have a right to complain, and believe me, Wild Bill will listen: Yhat's why the scenario was changed in the first place. But there's a right and wrong way to go about it.

Better to say you're sorry, that you enjoy Wild Bill's work, and that you're glad the original Elsdorf has been revised.

------------------

"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

Fernando, to paraphrase our President, I feel your pain. But, to say "It wasn't my fault!" is just plain wrong. Getting mad is fine, but flaming someone (in your case, BTS & Wild Bill) rather than expressing your feelings in a civil tone is a choice...yes, you have a right to complain, and believe me, Wild Bill will listen: Yhat's why the scenario was changed in the first place. But there's a right and wrong way to go about it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something went wrong with the first version of this scenario and ruined two weeks of playing with a friend of mine. Am I guilty of that? IMHO I'm not. It seems BTS introduced a bug with version 1.03 and the placement of the Tiger reinforcements wasn't the best one at best. We're fortunate enough that BTS and Wild Bill are very responsive (and very polite, Wild Bill answered me in a kindly manner)and they quickly corrected the bug (v1.04) and the placement of reinforcements.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

Better to say you're sorry, that you enjoy Wild Bill's work, and that you're glad the original Elsdorf has been revised.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read my posts ? IIRC I wrote:

"I'm very pleased by the patches and Elsdorf second version. Thanks Wild Bill Wilder"

"It was a VERY interesting scenario till my Tiger reinforcement appeared"

"It(the scenario) WAS FUNNY till the Tigers appeared....and disappeared same turn"

I thought you read my messages before reppliying them

Please note I'm not fluent in English and to write these messages is a time consuming task for me. IMHO to continue with more messages of this kind won't turn CM or Elsdorf scenario better than they already are. This is my last message about this subjet. IMHO all has been said and done.

[Guest Madmatt]

Please note I'm not fluent in English and to write these messages is a time consuming task for me. IMHO to continue with more messages of this kind won't turn CM or Elsdorf scenario better than they already are. This is my last message about this subjet. IMHO all has been said and done.

Yeah Rune! You big meany! It's all over..He said so! Besides he is a European and oh, wait a second...So is Moon and he tested that one too...

But it's ok cause since he said the Beta testers didn't check this one close enough and...Hmm, now wait a minute...I too tested that scenario and I am also a Beta Tester...hmmmm

Well HELL! I MUST SUCK THEN!

See Rune, its all clear now... WE BOTH SUCK!

*******

Rune is in my mind one of the best playtesters that has ever worked with me. In fact, the whole Raider CM team is topnotch. They always point out these kinds of things and without them, I could not possibly do what I do.

**********

But but Bill...I am not a Raider or Rune! Where does that leave me???? Oh that's right. I keep forgetting... I SUCK...

He also says my Site sucks in so many words too since he isn't to be held accountable for actually READING which scenarios are posted on it.

When I grow up, I wanna be just like Fernando...

Guilt free and fancy free...

Madmatt

Sarcasm Fortified for Your Health...

------------------

If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 09-02-2000).]

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Ah, Madmatt, mad as ever I see. Of course you are a topnotch tester, and yes, you have gone over and through a number of the scenarios I have done...and done a superb job, might I add.

And there are others out there, neither Raiders nor Beta testers, who have tested and given reports. Lest I offend anyone who has helped (and there have been a goodly number), accept my thanks and recognition, all of you.

I think anyone who frequents this forum will readily admit that no one supports CMBO more than old Madmatt. His website, updates, mods, scenario depot, scenario listings, playtesting and scenario testing all attribute to that. And it is much appreciated.

------------------

Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com