Prep Barrage vs later barrage

[Remydog]

Any thoughts on this. I am still unsure which is better. Laying down a barrage on turn one obviously has the advantage of it hitting where you want when you want at the expense of perhaps wasting your artillery strength on unoccupied positions. However calling fire on known positions (particularly as the Russians) is subject to such long delays that the tactical situation is almost always changed by the time the freight comes in. Also I have noticed that the defenders are usually clobbering your assault elements while they are sitting waiting for the arty.

Opinions? Advice? Dirty tricks?

[WWB]

What I really like is the delayed prep barrage. You can get it by setting the turn 1 barrage, then hitting Q to add one minute delays.

Your opponent really will **** a brick when 300mm rockets suddenly start dropping on turn 20.

WWB

[blazethedog]

So far, I really like using my artillery more on an as needed basis. From the german point of view, you can pretty much figure that if you see 2 or 3 russian coming your way, there will be many more behind them. The solution has been to target slightly ahead of the lead unit. Sure, he may well get pass that point and continue on but more than likely, he has a lot of buddies coming right behind him. If you play QB, spend some pts getting 2 or 3 105mm observers. Place them on the highest ground you can find where they can observe much of the battle field. When you spot the infantry coming, only target one battery initially(the first turn) and perhaps by the end of the second turn, more infantry will appear. Go ahead and target the remaining 2 batteries and get ready for the fun. The infantry will hop all over the place when the first rounds land, but when all 3 batteries come into play, there will be no one left to hop around. So far it has worked well for me! Anything smaller than a 105mm is a waste of time though and only really acts to irate and delay the enemy.

[Remydog]

Originally posted by blazethedog:

So far, I really like using my artillery more on an as needed basis. From the german point of view, you can pretty much figure that if you see 2 or 3 russian coming your way, there will be many more behind them. The solution has been to target slightly ahead of the lead unit. Sure, he may well get pass that point and continue on but more than likely, he has a lot of buddies coming right behind him. If you play QB, spend some pts getting 2 or 3 105mm observers. Place them on the highest ground you can find where they can observe much of the battle field. When you spot the infantry coming, only target one battery initially(the first turn) and perhaps by the end of the second turn, more infantry will appear. Go ahead and target the remaining 2 batteries and get ready for the fun. The infantry will hop all over the place when the first rounds land, but when all 3 batteries come into play, there will be no one left to hop around. So far it has worked well for me! Anything smaller than a 105mm is a waste of time though and only really acts to irate and delay the enemy.

[Remydog]

Originally posted by blazethedog:

So far, I really like using my artillery more on an as needed basis. From the german point of view, you can pretty much figure that if you see 2 or 3 russian coming your way, there will be many more behind them. The solution has been to target slightly ahead of the lead unit. Sure, he may well get pass that point and continue on but more than likely, he has a lot of buddies coming right behind him. If you play QB, spend some pts getting 2 or 3 105mm observers. Place them on the highest ground you can find where they can observe much of the battle field. When you spot the infantry coming, only target one battery initially(the first turn) and perhaps by the end of the second turn, more infantry will appear. Go ahead and target the remaining 2 batteries and get ready for the fun. The infantry will hop all over the place when the first rounds land, but when all 3 batteries come into play, there will be no one left to hop around. So far it has worked well for me! Anything smaller than a 105mm is a waste of time though and only really acts to irate and delay the enemy.

Oops! spot the newbie!

THAT I know! Arty from the german point of view is comparatively easy. And your idea of smashing the second echelon and chewing up the recon unit with small arms has merit!! A real keeper in fact!

You may suppose that I have a russian bend and they seem to be at a gross disadvantage in the artillery department

the choice seems to be

a. Hmmmm I think they are riiiight about......Theeere! (pre-planned)

or

b. Hmmmm I think they are gonna be abooooouuuuut.......Here. In about Ohhhhhhhh.......four.......no! Goddamn! FIVE

[Boo Radley]

I know, when I first saw I had a five minute wait for my 120mm mortars, I saw big trouble ahead. I have to admit though, that I prefer it to a turn one barrage that may hit absolutely nothing.

[Steel Rain]

My opinion is that that russian arty is essentially worthless. I have found pre planned barrages against a human to be so chancy that the cost of the arty is never made up in the long haul. There is always the possibility that you might get lucky, but like in a casino, in the long game, you will come out behind. The only exception to this rule is the russian 82mm morter, they come in with about 3 min, so they have some use on the tactical battlefield.

I have played about a 20 games against humans so far, and I have never seen the russain player ever buy arty (about 10 examples). There may be a way to deploy arty that makes sense, but I have yet to see it. My advise to people playing the russian side, skip the arty and use on map HE. Just my 2 cents.

Kevin;

[jgdpzr]

What Steel Rain says is historically accurate. The Soviets simply did not coordinate their artillery like the Germans and the Western allies did. They massed a ****load of guns at the divisional and above levels, usually tied to inflexible fire plans laid down by corps and army level HQ's. They didn't disperse their batteries so as to be attached to the level of units as usually seen in CM battles. The offshoot of this organization was that they tended to mass fire in prepatory barrages, and did not worry about attaching forward observers to smaller units to be adjusted on-the-fly as required in CM battles. So, to be accurate, the Soviets should suffer in CM type battles. Brigade and below level assets, i.e. primarily medium mortars, didn't suffer quite so much from this arrangement. But within the context of the battles as usually fought in CM, the big stuff is basically assumed to have already done it's business (outside of the prep barrage feature represented in the game) before the troops roll off their start line. It does present a challenge, as this type of imbalance certainly didn't exist within virtually any of the weapon systems of CMBO. It makes it tougher to play the Soviets, that's for sure.

[Grisha]

Soviet artillery is pretty worthless when you try to make it work within a western methodology. Try the Soviet methodology, and it's different.

On the offensive, Soviet reconnaissance became so extensive that by 1944 fully 60-80% of enemy defenses were marked on their tactical maps as immediate objectives, and within fire plans. How would you depict this in CMBB? Label 60-80% of enemy pillboxes, trenches, minefields, barb-wire, guns, and tanks on the map (make sure those ID'ed units are padlocked, too). TRP these enemy positions as you see fit. This capability of the Soviets really became effective by mid-1943.

It does sound a bit unfair from a gaming perspective, but reality often is.

addendum: I should add that this capability was limited to the penetration phase of an offensive operation, the initial assault on German defensive positions. During the exploitation phase, forward detachments relied primarily on organic mortars and rockets for support, usually as direct or semidirect fire.

[ October 07, 2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Grisha ]

[Michael Emrys]

And don't forget the assault guns. The SU-76, Su-122 and SU-152 as well as the ISU-152 were there largely to make up with direct fire support what the Reds lacked in on-call indirect fires.

Michael

[Grisha]

Thanks, Michael. Forgot to add SU's as part of forward detachment copmpositions. Glad you caught that.