Is there a rule for tungsten use ?

[Thin Red Line]

I noticed in several scenarios the reluctance of TacAi (both Russian and German) to use tungsten when it is available.

After the range finding and a couple non-penetrating hits i'd expect the tank commander, or the battery leader, to ask his crew to switch to 'T' shells.

But it doesn't always happen.

What i'd like to know is what parameters does the TacAi consider ? Is there a rule applicable (i.e. after 3 hits, try tungsten) ?

Or is the TacAi trying to save tungsten rounds if there is the slightest theorical chance of penetration with standard ammunution ?

[edit : spelling]

[ December 03, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Thin Red Line ]

[Thin Red Line]

Bump because it is certainly as an important question as 'blowing off turrets ?'

[walpurgis nacht]

*bump* It is a good question. I'd like to know these parameters as well.

I will say that I just finished a game with a T-70, and I fired tungsten after the 1st wasted HE shot. So it doesn't always wait. But knowing the criteria would be very useful.

[Goose]

If you look closely at the armor penetration tables you will see that T rounds don't always have better penetration than AP rounds. IIRC it's mentioned in the maual somewhere that T rounds have a higher probability of richocheting(spelling?) when hitting sloped armor. I believe there's also something about shell speed dropoff differing between T and AP. But I'm at work so I can't check it.

Anyways, I think this is the reason your tank commanders sometimes hesitate to use T rounds.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Goose:

I believe there's also something about shell speed dropoff differing between T and AP. But I'm at work so I can't check it. Anyways, I think this is the reason your tank commanders sometimes hesitate to use T rounds.

With any tank ammo, the tools to asses the decrease in velocity are writen into the AP-table, so this is definitely not the problem. I have had hundreds of experiences with AT guns and tanks where they don't use tungsten when it would CLEARLY but in their best interest to do so. . . at least not for several shots.

[Stalin's Organ]

Yep - T ammo has a much higher initial velocity because the rounds are lighter.

However this also causes them to lose velocity faster and be worse affected by atmospherics - so they are considerably less accurate above short range.

In "real life" crews were given guidelines about when they should and should not use T ammo (and other types of ammo too) against various enemy types.

The Tac AI evaluates the usefulness of using T ammo using both parameters - hit chance and penetration.

Ammo selectoin also applies to other types - I recently had a T34/85 fire HE at a half track - it had 40+ HE rounds, 8 AP and 5 or 6 T - obviously the HE was selected because it has more than adequate "penetration", a great kill chance if it hits, and the AP & T is in scant supply and is best saved for use against "real" armour.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

[QB]

The Tac AI evaluates the usefulness of using T ammo using both parameters - hit chance and penetration. QB]

I didn't know the "hit chance" decreased disproportionately with the use of tungsten!? Did I miss that in the manual? If it is, we should have some rough way to calculate it so we can use the tungsten more effectively (or rather know when it's best to expect it will be used).

[Stalin's Organ]

I don't think it's in the manual anywhere - it's certainly not in the description of the Ammo on pg 118.

I happen to know it from other sources and I think it has been mentioned here in the forum a couple of times.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I don't think it's in the manual anywhere - it's certainly not in the description of the Ammo on pg 118.

I happen to know it from other sources and I think it has been mentioned here in the forum a couple of times.

I don't mind that the manual is useless in terms of tactics . . . that makes the game discovery more exciting, but being able to roughly calculate when the tungsten will be used is required to make sound tactical decisions.

There has to be a specific equation used to calculate this "exclusive-to-tungsten" decrease in velocity, and it should be in the manual! Creating your own tactics is one thing, telepathy is quite another.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

Creating your own tactics is one thing, telepathy is quite another.

LOL

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

I don't mind that the manual is useless in terms of tactics . . . that makes the game discovery more exciting, but being able to roughly calculate when the tungsten will be used is required to make sound tactical decisions.

Well, as a rule of thumb I'd say that a tank will use "special" ammo (tungsten or hollow charge) if "regular" ammo will most likely fail and the special ammo has a much higher penetration probability. It will usually not use tungsten ammo if it's only slightly better than AP because tungsten rounds are less deadly if they penetrate.

The number of rounds left for each ammo type also has an impact on ammo selection.

Dschugaschwili

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I don't think it's in the manual anywhere - it's certainly not in the description of the Ammo on pg 118.

I happen to know it from other sources and I think it has been mentioned here in the forum a couple of times.

page 119 of the manual (oops Edit should be 119)

-tom w

[ December 04, 2002, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]