Brian Smith Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I played my first Quick Battle last night (I’m a CM newbie) and just wanted to get some comments on my tactics, and better ways to deal with this sort of situation. It was a combined arms, 750 point British attacking versus Germans defending a village, and once I had spent a while working out how to select forces within the points limit, I ended up with essentially an infantry force (2 vet platoons and 1 regular), with support from a 3 inch mortar, Vickers gun, a couple of veteran sharpshooters and a 25 pounder FO. It was lucky that I didn’t choose any armour, because the resulting map was like a big bowl, with my forces on one side, pretty much in the open, while the Germans were perched in the village on the other side of the bowl and down to the bottom. The left and right flanks were similarly elevated, with the result that the Germans could pretty much see every move I made on the advance! I decided to probe forward on both flanks with my sharpshooters to see what the Germans had I had actually intended to use this QB to practice reconn, but the layout didn’t really suit), follow that up with my veteran platoons and keep the regulars as a reserve, hidden in some scattered woods in the setup area. On one elevated corner of the map the Germans had dug in an infantry gun and an AT gun, with beautiful lines of sight to the only road coming into the town (which had a roadblock on it). They would have butchered any armour I had. The right flank was protected by a minefield and some barbed wire. The Germans in the village were mostly in heavy buildings with wonderful interlocking fields of fire – my probes up the left flank were harassed not only by the infantry and AT guns on my left, but also by troops on my right flank, firing across the ‘bowl’ and a half-track mounted with some sort of AA gun in the centre. The left flank, with the exception of the guns, appeared to be the weakest, so I decided I needed to silence the guns and the half track and make a left hook. This meant suppressing the troops on my right flank, or at least getting them to focus to their front. I had some reasonable luck, with my 3 inch mortar knocking out the halftrack reasonably quickly, but it took about 6 turns before the 25 pounder battery knocked out the guns on the heights. This would allow me (I thought) to move more freely on the left and I moved some squads forward into some buildings on this flank. On the right, my veteran platoon moved onto the far flank to engage a body of troops that the sharpshooter identified before he got killed. They moved from scattered woods to a patch of tall pines over on the left and from here were keeping the Germans on this side engaged. However, the enemy unleashed a massive 88 bombardment onto these guys and, while I had them hide, they lost 50 percent of their strength in shelling that lasted three turns. So now, my plan to make a left hook was in trouble, as my left flank was still exposed to fire from the unsuppressed German left – I couldn’t even move my FO into a better line of sight position to shell those positions, so any arty support was several turns away and the clock was ticking. I decided to change my plan to attack along my right (thinking that maybe his FO had used up most of his arty). I committed my reserve by running them down the exposed slope into a little cover in the bottom of the bowl in the centre, and then hopefully moving them to the right unseen. They took a couple of casualties from MG fire, but once in the scattered woods they moved to the right and a short artillery barrage landed on thin air behind them. The rest of the battle comprised an assault against the enemy positions in tall pines on my right, that took the form of a charge across open ground. It was a pretty nasty attack with too many friendly casualties and the fighting here was close (<8 metres) and teetering in the balance until the remnants of the veteran platoon prevailed and the enemy broke and ran. The German’s last move was to send forward a hidden halftrack armed with an MG, but two of my Piats (whom I had sent running into a house on the flank of the attack) knocked it out before it could be decisive. I won with a major victory, but my casualties were much higher than the enemys (who had a much smaller infantry force) and I felt that my attack was rushed and messy. My aim to use my artillery to soften up enemy positions while the infantry waited didn’t really come off, because while the enemy had great lines of sight, I didn’t, so pauses for arty were like 4 minutes. If I waited for artillery, I would run out of time to win the battle. Any hints on what to do when your advance is very exposed like that would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hit Alt-A. Just kidding. Actually it sounds like you did ok, getting a major. Taking the vets is a wise move, as they are less likely to break and run when you tell them to cross open fields under fire. I'm more in favor of using the sharpshooters in a defensive position, I don't know what the extra points would have got you. It sucks when they have guns with a wide scope of fire, at least you bought some arty, imagine if you didn't have any at all? Hang in there, you'll learn what to do in time. ------------------ Don't shoot...let 'em burn! - from opening scene, SPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 On your choice of force, you went heavy on the artillery, and that can work ok if you use it right. But you did have a lot of your eggs in that basket - 3" plus 25-lbers is a lot of fire support for a 750-point force. You probably have already figured out by now that the snipers didn't really pay for themselves. Scouting can be done more cheaply by any squad or half-squad, and they can take casualties without being wiped out. You did great to put the mortars on the AA halftrack. On the guns, it is less clear. If they really could see everything, then taking them out with the 25-lbers was a good move. But remember, the defender's problem with lots of nice guns, is they don't move and he doesn't get to decide where you come, you do. It is better pick a point of attack that is out of their LOS and them ignore them, if you can. If not, the artillery on them was ok. A hint though - always reserve some of the heavy stuff for the enemy infantry. When the enemy infantry is all spread out in seperate squads in buildings, arty isn't very effective against it. But when you have to rush a body of woods with defenders in it, nothing will move the fight your way more easily or more decisively than one fire mission right before your rush. It doesn't have to pound them all into sawdust. It just has to pin them to the ground as you rush in. In such short-range firefights, your unsuppressed men shoot more often, suppress the enemy more, then he shoots less often, and so on. Quality helps, and numbers help, and an infantry type with lots of SMGs helps. But everyone on the other side starting out at "taking cover - cautious" or worse, is even better. An arty can do that for you, very effectively. Incidentally, the enemy artillery hitting you was probably 81mm mortars, not 88s. You saw how much it messed you up. Part of the effectiveness against troops in woods is that concealment - not seeing exactly where someone is - protects against aimed small-arms fire, but not against HE firecrackers going off. And the shells can hit the trees and burst overhead, which is worse than it hitting the ground. How do attackers usually deal with wide open ground to cross? Using their numbers and firepower to eliminate some of the defenders before crossing. That can be tricky, though. As you probably saw, the problem is if you go forward, the MGs and such hit you in the open. If you sit still to shoot it out, the mortars hit you in the woods! Having some sort of direct fire HE weapon can help, though. Meaning a tank, or gun-armed halftrack, or whatever it is. Those are especially effective at getting infantry out of buildings, especially if you can afford to do it one at a time. And MG fire from all sorts of light armored vehicles can let you "duel" without much in the way of immediate cover. In the British case, that is usually "carriers", the MG version or the light MG (without much ammo) on the standard ones. Tanks don't have to run down roads into the enemy AT gunsights. You can let infantry find out where the enemy is. You do need *something* to hide behind and peek around, though. Thing is, if you move and the enemy guns don't, on all but the most wide-open maps you can find spots that see enemy A without letting enemy B see you. You avoid the big guns and shoot the MGs, then the infantry can move ahead more easily. With the force you *did* take - reasonable infantry and lots of arty - you were going to win late regardless, if you did things more or less right. A force like that works by just absorbing more punishment than the defenders (with far fewer points to spend) can stand. The arty makes sure they take some of their share. But for your next small outing, you might try 3 platoons (and they don't have to be vets), just the 3" mortars for fire support, no sharpshooters, and some carriers. Actually, you should be able to take 1 Carrier MG per platoon and a Sherman, in return for the 25-lber FO and your sharpshooters. You can decide whether you want the MGs on carriers or on foot, and the experience level of the infantry you are comfortable with. Then you have mortars for when they are in the woods, tank fire for when they are in buildings, infantry to tackle them in close and to firefight them in areas with cover, and MGs on armored carriers to firefight and suppress them when you don't have cover to work with. A pretty useful mix. What a coincidence! That is what they *actually* used - LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted February 5, 2001 Author Share Posted February 5, 2001 Thanks for the great comments and feedback - I appreciate it. Re the sharpshooters, I have to say I'm in two minds about them. I found them useful in defence in a small scenario I played, because they could surgically take out things like panzerschreck teams, but I agree they weren't much use in the attack I played. I assumed they would be stealthy and hence useful for scouting. Not sure how I would have gone without the artillery - I learned lots about being on the receiving end of it with those poor devils in the pines! Jason, I will take your advice on my next QB and try a real combined force. Thanks again guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Welcome aboard, Brian! Jason seems to think you had a 25lber FO and a 3" FO; my reading was that you took a single onboard 3" mortar and not a FO, so you may not have been as "arty-heavy" as he says. The only other thing I would add to his comments is to consider using smoke. Smoke from onboard sources probably wouldn't have helped much in your situation with the wide open terrain, but a turn of smoke FFE from your 25 lb FO (or a 3" FO if you had one) might have given you enough of a screen to cross the open ground you mention, and could also have shrouded the key enemy guns to give you time to assault them or move out of their engagement areas. Personally I almost always make sure to buy a mortar FO (3" or 81mm) when I'm attacking - they're fairly cheap, they come with lots of ammo, and they fire pretty quickly (in terms of both delay time and rate of fire). With the high number of rounds available, you don't feel so bad about "wasting" some on a smokescreen, and as jason points out if you catch somebody in trees even light mortars can cause a world of hurt. Plus, light mortars were commonly available at battalion level, so you can almost always justify having a battery available on "historical" grounds, if you care about that sort of thing. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted February 6, 2001 Author Share Posted February 6, 2001 Tankersley Yes, I had a on-map 3 inch mortar and you are also right, I didn't even think of smoke! D'oh. I could have smothered the guns with smoke and close assaulted them! Double d'oh! Thanks for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 Be careful when close assaulting guns. There's nothing I like to see better than watching a platoon of infantry come racing toward my pak40s--- only to come to terms with my SS rifle 45s at 20 yards. Make sure that your opponent hasn't hidden any inf around the gun. I always have at least an LMG and a HQ unit with my guns. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robeek Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 Man... I generally don't post anything on the forums, just read... but I'd like to point out that these type of posts give great insight on tactics and methods of fighting. The detailed description of a fight, coupled with the vet's hints and tips for specific situations really make it easy to relate the info gathered from here to my own QB's. Anyhow, just liked to say "thanks" and to encourage anyone else to put up something similar *hint hint* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted February 11, 2001 Author Share Posted February 11, 2001 Ditto that - I am happy to keep posting my experiences as I learn the game, if I am going to get such useful comments and advice in return. Plus, this board is a really friendly place too! Cheers all. Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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