Vehicle transport capacity

[YankeeDog]

So I had always assumed when it says in the info window that a vehicle can transport a "full squad", it means the vehicle can transport a squad and nothing more, or two teams.

It turns out this isn't always true. US M3 halftracks (and I assume the british equivalent, though I didn't verify) can transport a full squad *plus* a 2-man team like a zook or an arty spotter. I assume, but did not verify, that you could squeeze a sharpshooter in instead of a 2-man team.

I'm sure others have figured this out, but it was a big surprise when I discovered it by accident yesterday. A quick search didn't turn up anything on the topic, so I thought I'd share what I discovered.

If anybody's done a more extensive test of what vehicles can transport what, I'd love to hear the results - I never realized that "full squad" doesn't always mean just a full squad.

Cheers,

YD

[Olle Petersson]

The way I've understood it "full squad" should be interpreted as at least a full squad.

Some squads are larger than the nominal vehicle capacity, but with "full squad" these can be transported as well.

The halftracks seem to carry more than a fair share though; a twelve man squad plus a four man team...

Cheers

Olle

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

T

The halftracks seem to carry more than a fair share though; a twelve man squad plus a four man team...

Though I believe that strangely enough they are filled up by two sharpshooters.

I'll have to check that again.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

... they are filled up by two sharpshooters.

I'll have to check that again.

No need, you're right.

No vehicle can transport more than two units.

If these units happen to be sharpshooters then that's it.

If the squad mentioned above is split before entering the vehicle no additional unit will be able to embark...

What buggers me the most regarding unit transportation in CM is that battalion HQs can't be transported in Jeep/Kübelwagen, since that's exactly the historically correct vehicle type to use for these...

Cheers

Olle

[sebastian]

No vehicle can transport more than two units.

If these units happen to be sharpshooters then that's it.

There is a similar problem with the general space needed by a squad. It seems to remain constant, even if there is only one man left in the squad. I hate to see the routed remains of a squad trying to hide in a house, where another fresh squad is hiding. The fresh squad starts to move around, to make space for the cowards, and gets spoted themselfs.

[CMplayer]

Yeah, these are the sorts of things we can hope will be addressed in the engine rewrite in a few years.

[Kuma of Finland]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

So I had always assumed when it says in the info window that a vehicle can transport a "full squad", it means the vehicle can transport a squad and nothing more, or two teams.

It turns out this isn't always true. US M3 halftracks (and I assume the british equivalent, though I didn't verify) can transport a full squad *plus* a 2-man team like a zook or an arty spotter. I assume, but did not verify, that you could squeeze a sharpshooter in instead of a 2-man team.

You have to check the transport class. If it says 2 and full squad, you can transport one squad + 2 man team (like zook) OR HQ unit + 6 man team (like HMG) OR two sharpshooters etc. But you can't carry a single 81mm mortar as it's transport class is 3. Note that many tanks can also carry two units of suitable size.

You can also combine transports: like HT with transport class 7 can both carry a squad and draw a gun (IG/AT/whatever).

The most capable vehicle of this type seems to be SdKfz 7 (which happens to be one of my favourites transports in CMBO which has enormous transport class 9 and has a movability of HT. It can carry even two sturmgruppes (each of 13 men).

But the downside is that even SdKfz 7 will be filled completely by two sharpshooters... When logically (CMBO logic that is it should carry at least 9 sharpshooters. The other downside is that it's relatively as easy to shoot a truck as it's to shoot a SdKfz 7 which is in real life a way more robust and tougher than a regular truck.

But back to the issue: you can always try "tweaks" like splitting squads in order to find suitable combinations to fit on transports. You CAN make 1 HQ, 3 squads, 1 HMG, 1 LMG and 2 Zooks to fit on four tanks / big HT's

/kuma

[CMplayer]

The funny thing is that it really oughtn't to be very hard to formalize passenger transport on the simple basis of how many guys are in the squad/team, and give each vehicle a transport capacity based on that. Then certain weapons teams which take more space could be counted as having an extra 'man' for the tube or whatever.

This way, squads/teams reduced by casualties could also take less space.

[ August 02, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

The funny thing is that it really oughtn't to be very hard to formalize passenger transport on the simple basis of how many guys are in the squad/team, and give each vehicle a transport capacity based on that. Then certain weapons teams which take more space could be counted as having an extra 'man' for the tube or whatever.

This way, squads/teams reduced by casualties could also take less space.

The difficulty here is you get into issues of just how badly wounded a casualty is, so the modeling gets more complex. While seriously wounded or killed soldiers certainly aren't going to hop on a HT heading towards the action, a less-than mortally wounded casualty (ex: Takes a piece of shrapnel in the arm, so not much good for fighting, but is still ambulatory) might remain with his squad on the transport, especially if the transport was headed for the rear (pretty unlikely if the transport was headed forward). Therefore you have to make some allowance for walking wounded. This is just a WAG, but I would say something like 20% of CM casualties would be more or less lightly wounded and would still travel with their squad.

Not saying it wouldn't be cool, and it's certainly doable; it's just a little more complicated than just using the 'healthy' vs. casulaties numbers from the game engine, plus maybe an allowance for heavy equipment.

Cheers,

YD

[Stormin Norman]

Originally posted by sebastian:

There is a similar problem with the general space needed by a squad. It seems to remain constant, even if there is only one man left in the squad. [/QB]

you gotta remember 1 man left doesn't mean 1 man left alive, most his other squadies are wounded or just incapacitated from ******* their pants. They'll all want a ride back to the rear.

[xerxes]

If you check, I'm almost certain you CAN fit more reduced squads in a single area (i.e. house).

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...I would say something like 20% of CM casualties would be more or less lightly wounded and would still travel with their squad.

In which case I don't believe CM would count them a casualties. It seems pretty clear to me that by "casualty" CM means "ineffective". And it would be a rare, though not inconceivable, instance for a squad/crew to be bringing along ineffective casualties.

Michael

[zukkov]

well, as my dad said, you'd be amazed how many guys can fit on a tank to keep from walking. he never gave a number, but he said there always seemed to be room for one more. lol...

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

The difficulty here is you get into issues of just how badly wounded a casualty is, so the modeling gets more complex.

Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. But since wounded aren't modelled in the game, it ought to be solvable in an abstracted way, perhaps like you described.

[Kuma of Finland]

I don't see how the wounded/dead in a squad would affect on fitting in HT / on tank. They don't affect on any other movement either: a team with 10 down and one standing is still running happily around. Just thinking what kind of Superman you need to carry his ten buddies around and run in the same time...

I think casualties are just left out from modeling, they're left there where they get wounded/killed.

Therefore I think it should be more than nice to allow more small units to fit in the same area than one big unit (like several 1 man units in the area of 13 men unit). But I also understand the difficulties with the game engine; once it's written it's not easy to turn back for several minor changes here and there (as here on the forum there has been several wishes for anything between a fish in a river and buildings with 20 stores, not to mention the liquer stores to be robbed by the front liners ).

/kuma

[CMplayer]

Exactly. The guys in the squad who might be okay, but are fully occupied with caring for their wounded buddies are included in the number of casualties, for all practical purposes.