Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 I know this has been raised before, and I know that it has to wait for the engine re-write but consider the following: A randomly generated PBEM quick battle gave me, the defending soviet forces, precisely one machine gun. OK. So far so bad. After setup a small caliber prep-barrage then falls close to, but behind, the trench my only MG is hiding in. What does the AI do ?? Sit tight and keep your head down in the safest place available maybe ??? No way !! The AI, in its infinite wisdom decides that the 12.7mm MG team will jump up out of its trench and sneak, with its gun, into the centre of the barrage through the forest where tree bursts ensure that it looses two team members. Two turns later the barrage is over and I move a 1+ command, +2 moral platoon leader within command range. Now 25 rounds later and close to the end of the QB the still exhausted, routed team has been lying in the same spot for almost the entire battle. In command and well out of the way of any enemy fire. Think about it ! They left a trench to crawl through a barrage bursting in tree tops whilst dragging a heavy MG with them until they are so exhausted that they cant move for almost half an hour. I find it absolutely fantastical ! Geez….and this game is supposed to be a simulation of reality !!!! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 What was the experence level of the HMG? If it was Green or Conscript...well, lets just say that BTS really needs to model those NKVD "motivational" troops to get routed and paniced units moving again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Geez….and this game is supposed to be a simulation of reality !!!! :mad: [/QB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Yes, the AI is definitely having some trouble recognizing what is a safe location and what isn't and acting in what a human would regard as a rational manner. Recently, I have been playing the Germans attacking a village. Following a bombardment on a part of the village, and as my troops were drawing close, instead of the Reds simply sitting tight and not revealing their positions but waiting to spring ambushes, they came running out of their houses only to get slaughtered in great numbers in open terrain. The AI could indeed use a little more work... As far as purchasing units... In BO I used to let the computer buy the enemy's units and it sometimes came up with bizarre OOBs. More than once I faced half a dozen FlaK 20mm supporting a single company of infantry. Well...maybe that could've happened historically, but... Now I pick the enemy's forces as well as my own, and this gives me a battle with a more realistic matchup. It may take away a little of the surprise, though less than you might expect. I play so slowly—about one or two turns a day—that by the 5th. turn the only way I can remember my own forces is by looking at them constantly. YMMV. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 What was the experence level of the HMG? If it was Green or Conscript...well, lets just say that BTS really needs to model those NKVD "motivational" troops to get routed and paniced units moving again. They were green. But were in command range of the +1+2 platoon HQ when they decided to embark on their death crawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Ah gots dem mean ol', low down, double postin' blues... Michael [ November 17, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 It is as you said, a simulation of reality, not reality! And, who's to say that in the midst of the terror of an incomming artillery barrage but what a crew might do just that in trying to get away from it. Not saying it isn't a problem necessarily. The CMBO's MarderII will more often than not under artillery fire, amazingly charge right out into the middle of it. Almost busted my monitor on more than one occasion. I remember a WWII documentary on the Pacific, where it was explained that during a particularly heavy Kamakazi attack on an American carrier that had lasted all day, that during a brief lull one member of a deck gun crew jumped up from his gun, yelled; "Sure as hell is hot out here today" and with that, leeped over the side of the ship into the ocean never to be seen again. How realistic was that? Pretty real for the crew members who watched the guy do it. Ain't really no telling what human behavior under battle conditions will do 100% of the time. Anyways, I've played a bunch of BB games now and I haven't seen such behavior to the point where it effects things badly. I'm sure their looking at it however. So I'd chalk that one up to either it ain't a perfect world, or the crew in question thought that it sure as hell was hot out there. [ November 17, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 Yes, the AI is definitely having some trouble recognizing what is a safe location and what isn't and acting in what a human would regard as a rational manner. Its not JUST that (although that in itself is a biggie). Its the dire consequences of the resulting (over) reaction. OK. So the AI cant tell where is safe, but at least make the mistakes that it makes correctable. Allow the team to rally and be ordered back to their original position within a reasonable time frame. Is this not possible ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 yep, that's been my experience as well. i'm currently playing a qb with mostly green russian troops. with a full platoon i tried to wave assault a position i thought held only 1 supressed german squad. ok, so there was more than one. the assault broke down and at first they started to sneak back to their starting positions back in the treeline. sensible i thought. then they broke completely and began running sideways, right in front of the german lines towards another stand of trees. when they came within a few meters of that, they turned 180 degrees and started running back to the original start point. then they turned back towards the other stand again. it's been back and forth for about 3 turns now and of course they're completely exhausted. it would be funny if it weren't so tragic. lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 Maybe if ATG's, HMG's and morters could be made 're-crewable' if only abandonded (rather than damaged or knocked out). In that case the crew could run away, recover / rally and still return to fight again later in the battle. Does anyone know if this functionality is planned for the re-write ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by zukkov: yep, that's been my experience as well. i'm currently playing a qb with mostly green russian troops. with a full platoon i tried to wave assault a position i thought held only 1 supressed german squad. ok, so there was more than one. the assault broke down and at first they started to sneak back to their starting positions back in the treeline. sensible i thought. then they broke completely and began running sideways, right in front of the german lines towards another stand of trees. when they came within a few meters of that, they turned 180 degrees and started running back to the original start point. then they turned back towards the other stand again. it's been back and forth for about 3 turns now and of course they're completely exhausted. it would be funny if it weren't so tragic. lol...The Dance of Death. Yeah, I noticed that the first time a couple weeks after BO came out. It is possibly the single most absurd thing that occurs in the game. Which is actually a positive statement about the rest of the game. Of course there's that weird thing or two about artillery... Michael [ November 17, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Tvar Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 I got weird stuff like that too, i had a crack tiger against a bunch of rubbish conscript soviet light tanks. All was well until my tiger got immobilised and so the crew jumped out instead of staying in the tank where it was safe (they got ripped asunder in a deadly hail of 20mm shells ) [ November 17, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Dyvim Tvar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Dyvim Tvar: I got weird stuff like that too, i had a crack tiger against a bunch of rubbish conscript soviet light tanks. All was well until my tiger got immobilised and so the crew jumped out instead of staying in the tank where it was safe (they got ripped asunder in a deadly hail of 20mm shells )a "rubbish conscript soviet light tanks." you say. Well an immoblised Tiger in the midst of that....hmmmmmm bail out or stay put in this potential bomb....not sure what I'd do in this situation KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> quote: Originally posted by Dyvim Tvar: I got weird stuff like that too, i had a crack tiger against a bunch of rubbish conscript soviet light tanks. All was well until my tiger got immobilised and so the crew jumped out instead of staying in the tank where it was safe (they got ripped asunder in a deadly hail of 20mm shells ) a "rubbish conscript soviet light tanks." you say. Well an immoblised Tiger in the midst of that....hmmmmmm bail out or stay put in this potential bomb....not sure what I'd do in this situation </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevsharr Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 In Joechim Jung's book "History of the Panzerregiment GrossDeutchland"he mention's an order that they were to shoot at immobilized or seemingly dead tank's until they burned to prevent being fired at by a "dead" tank once they past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 KC I think you may have misunderstood my post. I agree that it is sensible that a tank crew bails when their tank is immobilized. I'm just not sure its sensible into the teeth of a 20mm blizard. Its this whole apparent inability of the AI to tell dangerous from less dangerous and the crazy tings it does as a consequence that marr (for me) a fundamentally good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Fly Pusher: KC I think you may have misunderstood my post. I agree that it is sensible that a tank crew bails when their tank is immobilized. I'm just not sure its sensible into the teeth of a 20mm blizard. Its this whole apparent inability of the AI to tell dangerous from less dangerous and the crazy tings it does as a consequence that marr (for me) a fundamentally good game.But how does your Tiger crew know there aren't several platoons of KVs in the vicinity? You as the game player see nothing but conscript Russian tanks, but in real life, there were no guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 In the second attack on Villiers Bocage, Michael Wittman, whom CM normally classes as Elite, baled after his Tiger had suffered a suspension hit from a 6lber anti-tank gun. Of course there are cases where crews didn't bale, such as Lt. Tyulayev at Jaroslaw, but the fact that such people won medals for doing so, suggests it wasn't common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Pusher Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 But how does your Tiger crew know there aren't several platoons of KVs in the vicinity? You as the game player see nothing but conscript Russian tanks, but in real life, there were no guarantees. True. This just points out another aspect of the problem. The way CM treates vehicles as points on a battlefield rather than as solid 3D objects. Things that can be hidden behind / under whilst the recently bailed crew work out what to do next. As things stand now a crew bails and are immediately visible and vunerable to anything that can see the tank. They then represent nothing more chalanging than MG aiming practice to their foe. In reality they may well have been able to escape through a hatch not directly observed by the enemy and then be able to hide behind the tank unobserved. Maybe this is an example where one compromise (vehicles existing at a single point) influences other aspects of the game such that a 'realistic' response to being imobilised results in unrealistic and artificial consequences. Maybe (in game terms) it would be better to make the crews stickier and the MGs less likely to get tired after running away whilst carrying a 100lb gun. Aspects that while not necessarily true IRL help to compensate for the weakness of the game model as it stands now. I'll duck (behind my point source ) desk now while people defend their game..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 This just points out another aspect of the problem. The way CM treates vehicles as points on a battlefield rather than as solid 3D objects. Things that can be hidden behind / under whilst the recently bailed crew work out what to do next. As things stand now a crew bails and are immediately visible and vunerable to anything that can see the tank. They then represent nothing more chalanging than MG aiming practice to their foe. In reality they may well have been able to escape through a hatch not directly observed by the enemy and then be able to hide behind the tank unobserved. Maybe this is an example where one compromise (vehicles existing at a single point) influences other aspects of the game such that a 'realistic' response to being imobilised results in unrealistic and artificial consequences. Maybe (in game terms) it would be better to make the crews stickier and the MGs less likely to get tired after running away whilst carrying a 100lb gun. Aspects that while not necessarily true IRL help to compensate for the weakness of the game model as it stands now. I'll duck (behind my point source ) desk now while people defend their game..... [/QB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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