Aacooper Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Does anyone have suggestions about modelling vineyards? Orchards are modelled pretty well by a solid grouping of scattered trees, but vineyards are lower to the ground. Does brush provide enough concealment? What about a combination of brush and scattered trees? "Victory In The Vineyards" models vineyards are wheatfields -- would that work for a September scenario? Any thoughts, suggestions, comments? BTW, I'm trying to model the land between Corny and Jouy-sur-Arches, France (south of Metz) for a historically accurate scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Hi I use brush, but have modified the BMPs, so that it looks more like crops/vines I'm not clever enough to post a screenshot here, so if you are interested I can let you have either a screen shot or the mod files ------------------ Pete "When Rumania declared war in August 1916, it is said that one of the first army orders, after mobilization, was that only officers above the rank of major were allowed to use make up" The Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted January 6, 2001 Author Share Posted January 6, 2001 I'd like to see a screenshot, please. My e-mail is cooper131@juno.com Brush seems like a good idea. It kind of looks like brush in the aerial photograph, but the topographic map lists it as vineyards, and that cleared up my confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Hmmm, this is a tough one. Vinyards are not only low-level LOS blocks but also severely restrict movement. I'm not sure if brush is the best answer. In all the vinyards I've seen, there has been a grid pattern of 8" diameter fence posts, each about 6-8' high, set about 10' apart. Heavy-guage wire is then strung between these posts in parallel lines. The vines are planted between the posts and are supported by the wires, making a series of dense vine curtains and cart paths repeating from 1 side of the vinyard to the other. This makes vinyards somewhat unique. If the wire is strung E-W, for example, the vinyard offers little LOS or movement problem E-W. However, the LOS is totally blocked up to at least the height of a man N-S and movement is greatly impeded, maybe even for tracked vehicles, in those directions also. There aren't any tiles in CM with different properties from different directions like this. This means you have to be creative. I think the best way to do vinyards is to enclose a field about 100m x 200m or up to double that size in size with a stone wall. Then put in parallel rows of bocage or hedge inside the fence to be the rows of vines. If you want to be really nasty, add barbed wire in each hedge/bocage tile, right next to the hedge/bocage (that's the only place it can go in the tile anyway). The result has the directional properties desired--severe movement and LOS problems perpendicular to the rows, but no real problems parallel to them. The rows are farther apart than they perhaps should be, but that's no worse than the other modeling problems caused by 20m tile size. I'd post a screen shot of this type of vinyard but my FTP site seems to be porked right now. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I just use scattered trees in very regular fields with a hedge around them, and very straight tracks going through them. Vines are actually of reasonable height, and can be higher than an average person stands. Depends on the sort really. Brush would be too low, IMO. Edit: excellent ideas BH. Would mess up the look of the map though Hmm, uncanny creativity there... ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 01-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundpounder Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I have toyed with the idea of doing a grape vine mod ever since I did "Victory in the Vineyards" I think I will take a look at what is involved in turning wheat into grape vines. gp [This message has been edited by groundpounder (edited 01-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Andread said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>excellent ideas BH. Would mess up the look of the map though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, my FTP site pulled its head out so I was able to upload the screenshot. Here it is: This version uses bocage for the vines and barbed wire for their supports. So going across the grain of the rows, you'd have all kinds of problems, but going along them gives you clear alleys. The CoC lines shown here also correspond to LOS, with the red lines having LOS and the black line not. I think it looks OK. Not great, but much closer to a vinyard than a brush tile. More importantly, it has much more realistic combat and movement effects. Anyway, just a suggestiong. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizen Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I make them by enclosing a field with a stone wall and using hedges as the vines. I decided against using bocage as I didn't want to restrict LOS that severely. Also, I didn't want to restrict vehicular movement. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Matt said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I make them by enclosing a field with a stone wall and using hedges as the vines. I decided against using bocage as I didn't want to restrict LOS that severely. Also, I didn't want to restrict vehicular movement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I do also when I want to make a young vinyard. But for old ones, where the vines have attained the diameter and woodiness of trees, only interwoven, I think bocage works OK. Adding wire just makes them even older and denser. OTOH, the problem with bocage is that Allied vehicles can go through it and Germans can't, which can make for a serious play imbalance if you're not careful. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Hmm, does look much better than I thought. I am just wondering now. Would hedges be better than Bocage? I doubt you get vehicular movement restrictions through vines (especially since vines in Europe at that time were not older than 50-60 years since they all had to be replanted after the old vines were killed by the blight in the 1890s, and most probably a lot younger than that). The other problem is that you can get casualties from barbed wire IIRC, but the wire supporting the vines is just ordinary, not barbed, so ideally it should only slow movement, but not cause casualties. It is very tricky. Hopefully BTS will create a vineyard tile for CM2, and this can be retrofitted to CM1. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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