CombinedArms Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I was playing the operation McKinley's Battalion as defending Allies against attacking AI. It's a six round operation beginning with a round of 20 night moves. I thought I'd done pretty well in the opening round--had killed half a dozen Axis halftracks, eliminated all visible infantry, and knocked out an attacking Panther, immoblizing the other visible Panther in the final seconds of move 20. There was some sound contacts on Axis armor 200mm beyond my main front lines, and maybe 50 mm from advanced zook teams, but all visible attacking units had been wiped out--I felt pretty good about my position. Next round starts--daylight--and I find myself relocated at the far back of the board in significantly inferior positions. For various reasons I won't go into here to avoid spoilers, I can't easily move back to my old lines and am afraid my new positions will be much harder to defend, plus at this rate I might get pushed off the board even if I kill all attackers. So my question is--is this typical of your experience with operations, or a bug--or intended result-- with this particular one? Should I even worry about it, or just fight it out where I find myself? (There are no VLs.) My basic understanding was that you get to keep whatever ground you're holding at the end of an operation, with a little no-man's-land in between. I can understand being pushed back a little if there were more enemy troops ahead that I couldn't see in the night, but not 200-300mm! Anyway, I'm a bit confused & frustrated and would appreciate any advice or council. I'm also wondering whether I should persist with this operation or bag it. What's your experience been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms: My basic understanding was that you get to keep whatever ground you're holding at the end of an operation, with a little no-man's-land in between.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The scenario designer determines the distance of no-man's land, so it could be several hundred meters in this one. Also, the computer tends to straighten out the line between battles, So you have to make sure no units flank you. Being that you started with a night battles means there is a possibility that a unit did sneak by your flank, therby causing the big shift in the front lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Scenario Designer probaly starts you in middle of Map, and depending what kind of Operation( Advance, Destroy, Assault) and No Man's Land Computer Adjusts to these Parameters... Keep Playing.. It is a Fun Operation.. you will not be dissapointed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc343 Posted May 11, 2001 Share Posted May 11, 2001 I asked the same question(here it is) and this is the answer that I recieved..Hope it helps. ccc343 Junior Member Member # 5651 posted 05-09-2001 04:13 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After doing a search (and coming up empty) I am posting this question. How does the AI determine deployment zones during operations? My specific incident that brought up this question is as follows. During Stolberg (punching a hole operation) I managed to advance(with heavy casulties)to the north edge of the center of the board (for sake of this map I refer to north as the allies view from their initial deployment zone) I then finished my set of turns in this position in decent strength (company of infantry supported by 2 shermans)To my shock and dismay, at the beginning of the next deployment phase my farthest deployment zone was extended only as far as the village of Stolberg. Hence my boggle. Why did my units not stay in place at their farthest point of advance? Does the game simulate the German credo of immediate counter attack when they lost ground? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | IP: Logged Echo Member Member # 979 posted 05-09-2001 04:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Open the operation in the editor and make sure the no mans land setting is 80m or less. I always do that before playing an op. -------------------- As I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear nothing, for I am the meanest mother*#*#** in the valley. (George S. Patton) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | IP: Logged ccc343 Junior Member Member # 5651 posted 05-10-2001 08:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10-4...Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | IP: Logged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted May 11, 2001 Share Posted May 11, 2001 Again if your change the deadmans zone you may be cheating yourself of a good designers work. If he has playtested it enough and has a reason for the the Dead mans zone... so be carfule if you reduce the deadmans zone because then you could change the dynamics of the Operation and the designers intent.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 11, 2001 Author Share Posted May 11, 2001 I think as Kingfish suggested this is a case of a big no-man's land. With that in mind I've kept playing and it seems to be working out OK. Looking at the ground more closely, I find it's not really that much worse than the old ground I was holding, plus a big no man's land actually helps the defender in this scenario--and I'm the defender! (I've got mucho arty and need a place for it to land w/o killing my troops, plus attacker must spend 5-6 moves just to get close enough to shoot at me.) So I can see why it was done that way but it WAS pretty surprising. Thanks to all respondents for the encouragement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 12, 2001 Share Posted May 12, 2001 Hi CombinedArms. I've made the Operation and although fairly long ago, I am quite sure that it's an advance type op (not at home, can't check). In this case, the attacker has to push you all the way back to your map edge. Being the Allied defender, consider yourself fighting a delay action, where ground is traded for time. The operation has been playtested by the skillful ranks of Wild Bill's Raiders back and forth and yet back again, so it definitely works the way it is. Being an early "work" before Modders, Pengs and Attritionists, it is certainly not as polished as some newer scenarios, but it's a good fight anyway the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 13, 2001 Author Share Posted May 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: Hi CombinedArms. I've made the Operation and although fairly long ago, I am quite sure that it's an advance type op (not at home, can't check). In this case, the attacker has to push you all the way back to your map edge. Being the Allied defender, consider yourself fighting a delay action, where ground is traded for time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Moon, Thanks very much for replying! I guess I've not played an "advance" operation before. I was drawn to this one because I'm reading a book on the Battle of the Bulge (C. MacDonald) which had a vivid portrait of this battle. A query for anyone with experience playing "advance" operations that might hold for all such operations is--can I lose simply by letting opposing unit reach the far end of the board, or do they have to chew me up and push me off the board? It would be pretty easy for the Axis to run a couple of units down the far side of the board--I doubt I could stop them. They might even be able to exit their whole force through a determined flanking maneuver, though my arty would inflict some casualties. The AI probably won't do this, but a human very well might, if it would win. I've still got a pretty effective force in place, but not enough to effectively cover a very wide board with a lot of open space. So can I win as long as I've got an effective force blocking the main road, some distance from the back of the board, and inflict 2 or 3 to 1 casualty ratios, which is what I currently seem to be doing (not so hard with all the arty I've got, but arty can't hold ground like inf)? If the Axis placed a few units on my remote flank, would that force me way back, due to the no man's land rules? I guess what I'm saying is that I find the manual a bit ambiguous on how to win "advance" operations--plus there's virtually no info on no man's lands, or how they function-- and when you invest the kind of time an operation takes to play, it's nice to know what you're trying to accomplish and what factors might produce defeat. [ 05-13-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 First off, indeed, the manual is a bit skimpy on how exactly operations play out. This is for two main reasons - it's been written while the game was being finalised (which is normal); and the deliberate decision to make the manual as precise as necessary to play the game, but as vague as possible to keep the player using "gut" instinct (and/or real world tactics) rather than charts, tables and formulas. To answer the question with regard to advance type operations - it is NOT enough for the enemy to sneak a few units past your flank undetected and "reach the end of the map". If the enemy tries to do that, he will find his most forward units bumped back quite a bit instead. What IS possible is that he exploits an open flank IN FORCE, pushing through enough units to make the whole front line move back. The computer calculates (at the end of each battle) the force disposition of both sides and determines who is pushing and who is being pushed. The front line is straightened out during this process a little (which is probably not a good solution based on my gaming experience with ops). The exact calculations are probably only known to Charles (and that is good), but you get the dea. In other words, the goal of an advance type operation for the attacker is not to reach the end of the map with one (or two, three...) unit(s). This is not even possible, since each battle only plays on a portion of the entire operation map. Instead, you need to move the front line so far forward, that the entire "battle window" is moved further down the operational map. If the "battle window" reaches the end of the map, the operation is over and the attacker (advancer ) has won. (If this doesn't happen, then he will most likely lose, even if the defender lost more men. The goal for the attacker is to reach the map end AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE - so reaching it on the last battle will hardly yield a major victory etc.) If you are defending (especially over open ground and with inferior forces), delaying the enemy so that he cannot reach the map edge before the end of the operation can indeed be quite a challenge. In such a situation, you will be required to identify most likely routes of advance, set up fire pockets and defenses in depth and protect flanks and open areas (with as little as an observer team or half squad sometimes) to spot flanking maneuvers. In other words - tasks which were required from your real world counterpart in 1945 more often than not (since the enemy often doesn't give you the pleasure of advancing right into your strongest defenses...) Sooo - yes, it is indeed possible to win after allowing the enemy to push you back several times, as long as you are not pushed off map. BTW, it IS also possible to push the enemy back (although this is hard to do in advance type operations, since they are intended to show fast maneuvers against relatively light defense and not a heavily dug-in enemy capable of counter-attacking - the ASSAULT type operation is better suited for this), and if you push the enemy beyond his map edge, you might even win prematurely (happens in "Drive to Mortain" against the AI occasionally, I heard). When being pushed back, you should only pay attention to attrit enough of the enemy to make further advances more difficult for him. You are, in a military sense, fighting a classic delaying action, and sudden ambushes, local counterattacks and use of terrain to slow down the attacker are (some of) your tools. One tip: this can also mean to sometimes actively seek out the enemy to engage him and NOT stay hidden until the last moment (in real world terms - make him think he's reached the main line of resistance and deploys prematurely). Some operations might have relatively short battles (15 turns) and if you hide until turn 13 you effectively allow the enemy to sneak up on to you and remain relatively intact, you might make it easier for him to push you off the map for good in the next battle. Well, this has gotten longer than I intended it already, but I hope I've answered the main question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 14, 2001 Author Share Posted May 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: Well, this has gotten longer than I intended it already, but I hope I've answered the main question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it HAS answered the main question--and in a terrifically clear and detailed way. Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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